BaruchExcellent question ...Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:518.104.22.168Well please look at the bigger picture. Martin Luther gets too much credit sometimes ... there were prior movements within Catholicism that emphasized colloquial reading of the Bible, though this was before there was a printing press ...
The Waldensians were earlier, founded by the Frenchman, Waldo, and first tried to do lay exegesis of the Bible, but ultimately translated it illegally, into French. The Lollards were later, founded by the Englishman, Wycliffe, who was an Oxford academic, who translated the Bible illegally into Middle English. Wycliffe was the precursor to Jan Hus of Bohemia, and of the Congregational and Puritan churches in general.
Both Wycliffe and Hus were nationalists, which is something the Catholic Church worked hard to prevent ... Latin and Catholic clergy being the predecessor to today's EU. Waldo was neither a clergyman nor a scholar, but embarked on radical preaching of poverty, not unlike St Francis, but operating outside of Catholic control. Wycliffe directly inspired the Jan Hus, as well as such men as John Oldcastle (a lay preacher who was the inspiration for Falstaff, a character in Shakespeare's plays), who in reality was executed (though Falstaff wasn't).
So the point being, that anti-colloquial versions of the Bible were too easy for lay people to read and exegete ... the Latin Vulgate version, given the lack of common knowledge of Latin, by the High Middle Ages, was much harder to read. This was all overturned by the confluence of two things ... a colloquial translation and the onset of the printing press (the first European printed book being the so-called Gutenberg Bible ... though Gutenberg himself was no longer associated with it, by the time it was published, because he had gone bankrupt trying to produce the first edition, and was bought out). Gutenberg's intention however, wasn't Protestant. This was a Latin Bible, and was merely a way to produce cheap copies of Bibles for churches, not individuals, since until his invention, a Bible cost a king's ransom. He was simply using technology to undermine the existing scribal system, just as Apple does with its technology in things like iTunes.
Why anti-rational? This goes back to Apostle Paul. And that is why Martin Luther was anti-rational as well, not because he was Augustinian though. Will post more on that later.
- What’s with Protestants and Catholics and their hate of know ipirate2, Fri Jan 20 11:43What’s with Protestants and Catholics and their hate of knowledge? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Xv4mV1BIs In the early years, the Catholics hierarchy was against the reading of scriptures. In... more
- Great blanket statement! MN_Morgan, Mon Jan 23 13:58I find you confusingly dualistic. What branch do you belong to again?
- Re: Great blanket statement! ipirate2, Mon Jan 23 15:10Gnostic Christian naturalist is my closest label. Confusion is likely from my poor writing style. I am not English. Regards DL
- Nevermind MN_Morgan, Mon Jan 23 18:38I meant what specific Gnostic tradition do you come from, because there are many traditions popping back up.
- OK, here goes... Mirage, Sat Jan 21 20:28First off, the title of your post assumes that Protestants and Catholics do hate knowledge. Are you asking Catholics and Protestants to answer this question, or would you prefer that Dawkins answer... more
- Brava! Frashavan, Sat Jan 21 21:52Very nicely done...
- Factual knowledge wiould destroy most religions/ideologies! (nm) Kasey, Sat Jan 21 08:28
- What makes you think so? Mirage, Sat Jan 21 16:50We've made a fair number of scientific discoveries over the years, and last time I checked, there are still a lot of religions and ideologies.
- Indoctrination is the root cause! (nm) Kasey, Mon Jan 23 22:22
- But how many based on actual facts???? (nm) Kasey, Sun Jan 22 02:07
- Every experience and perception of experience ... Baruch, Sun Jan 22 05:48is factual, and every interpretation of all that, is factual. It just isn't usually objective. The Behaviorist school of psychology, had a s a dogma, that if you can't see it, it isn't real ... so as ... more
- Smoke-screening again! (nm) Kasey, Sun Jan 22 08:21
- Those who are most brainwashed ... Baruch, Sun Jan 22 10:05are the one's who can't see who they are ... so who did your brainwashing, yourself perhaps? Or do you blame your parents or your culture? Shalom
- Wide ranging research with an open mind! (nm) Kasey, Mon Jan 23 04:54
- I do, thanks ... and you? ;-0 (nm) Baruch, Mon Jan 23 06:31
- Different issue, hotly disputed. (nm) Mirage, Sun Jan 22 02:44
- Re: Factual knowledge wiould destroy most religions/ideologies! ipirate2, Sat Jan 21 11:04For sure. Things will not improve till believers recognize that all religions began as myths and until we return to that more healthy thinking, fools will always have a place to go. Regards DL
- Your understanding of the word "myth" is lacking (nm) Frashavan, Sat Jan 21 19:38
- You're right, I do have a place to go. Mirage, Sat Jan 21 16:56This fool is grateful for that.
- There are very few realists ... Baruch, Sat Jan 21 13:32because reality sucks! Idealism is much more comfortable. Shalom
- Lack of bias, destroys all bias ... QED Baruch, Sat Jan 21 09:42People mostly believe and do what they believe and do because of bias. Remove the bias, and they mostly no longer know what to think or what to do. Facts are like rocks, they are useful to bash... more
- This post will take some time to answer. Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:11Stay tuned. You make a number of assertions, and ask a number of questions here. I hope I can get to it all but really some of the things you are asking here people have dedicated their entire adult... more
- Well I am glad you take this particular post ... Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:16of iPirate seriously. Most of the time he is an ideological agent-provacatuer, not unlike the New Atheists. Shalom
- I think he is entirely serious about them. Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:27So I will attempt to answer, but I am poorly qualified in many ways.
- Did you read my anti-rationalist post below ... Baruch, Sun Jan 22 06:04I put near my original post to the seed of this string. I think I was rather nice about Catholicism ;-) Shalom
- Re: Did you read my anti-rationalist post below ... Mirage, Sun Jan 22 07:43Have read it several times and opened the wiki an awful lot. Catholic theology has always impressed me. I can see why Jews like to marry Catholics. Torah study impressed me also when I had the honor... more
- A good heart is superior to a good mind (nm) Baruch, Sun Jan 22 07:59
- We can only try, and your answers will be unique ... Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:30so only you can make them. My approach will be typically addressing the deep history, rather than the contemporary situation. Shalom
- What's with all the assumptions? Paradigm10, Fri Jan 20 13:21Why do you think that Christians hate knowledge? According to Proverbs 1:29 it is those who refuse to worship the Lord who hate knowledge. Why do you hate knowledge? The Church does not fear an... more
- Definitely an obsession of his ... Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:19not unlike Kasey, but gnostic rather than atheist. If Kasey wasn't fixated on Muslims, but Catholics, I think we would consider her a poster of headlines for longer iPirate articles ;-) Too bad if... more
- If Kasey were fixated on Catholics... Paradigm10, Sat Jan 21 14:50you wouldn't give it a second thought. Muslims are the new Jews after all and as such they seem to be your poster child of religious tolerance.
- That is a ridiculaous comparison.... Kasey, Sun Jan 22 02:19being anti-Semetic is part of Islamic ideology.....it's in their book and applied rigorously anywhere its followers get a chance. Even in France today, Jews are moving out because of the increasing... more
- Take it up with Baruch... Paradigm10, Sun Jan 22 08:23I was parroting him. It would have never occurred to me to come up with that on my own.
- So do you favor Buddhism then? Baruch, Sun Jan 22 05:52If not, why not ... some forms are non-theist. And with the exception of Japan, Buddhism has always been pacifist. Historically it has a better reputation than any other major religion. Even... more
- Both are by number ... Baruch, Sat Jan 21 22:47large and therefore dangerous. If Catholic countries (by culture) were being invaded militarily, I would be more concerned for Catholics. But they are being defrauded by the German, British and... more
- Re: What's with all the assumptions? ipirate2, Fri Jan 20 13:32Thanks for all the personal B S while ignoring the question. "The Catholic tradition says authentic faith never involves a sacrifice of the intellect" Then WTF is this? “Faith must trample under foot ... more
- That was a bit rough ... Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:14but at least not too scatological. Well there you have it, the Catholic Church today, which is not the Catholic Church of yesteryear. Do you really consider development over time irrelevant? Though... more
- Re: That was a bit rough ... ipirate2, Fri Jan 20 19:38Rather disingenuous when you might remember that I believe in telepathy. I am quite open to the unseen. Not to miracles by an absentee God who wants to control me and whose morals are closer to... more
- Re: That was a bit rough ... Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:46If you are interested in telepathy, you might find the current debate on mirror neurons of interest as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neurons
- Re: That was a bit rough ... ipirate2, Fri Jan 20 20:03Thanks. Having experienced it, I have no need to debate it but will check it out. I also do not push the notion as I have no proof to show and that is what belief takes for me. Regards DL
- Re: That was a bit rough ... Mirage, Sat Jan 21 05:18I think we may be coming closer to having some scientific information relevant to your experience and the experiences of many many other people.
- Re: That was a bit rough ... ipirate2, Sat Jan 21 11:13Noetic sciences are working on it and making some headway but from what I read, their ideas of telepathy do not quite match mine. This does not invalidate what they do but to me, they are just on the ... more
- Synchronicity ... Baruch, Sat Jan 21 13:36http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity Shalom
- Thought as Bonfire of the Vanities (nm) Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:54
- But your telepathy isn't supernatural ;-) Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:43The unseen is simply not yet explained by science, or do I mistake you on this? I think most of your vituperativeness is against institutional religion (I don't like it either) ... and you could be... more
- Which question? There were eight in all. Paradigm10, Fri Jan 20 13:46I didn't ignore any of the questions. I addressed each and every question and left it up to you to draw out the answers from the questions that I asked you. Why are you ignoring my questions? Martin... more
- I hope you come back, just ignore iPirate ... Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:09you are always interesting, when you share a part of who you are. Shalom
- Please don't leave, if possible. Mirage, Fri Jan 20 18:25Remember that for every poster here, there are many lurkers. Roman Catholicism is heartily demonized in textbooks in America. I do not know if that is also true in Europe or not, but I have seen... more
- I'm not interested in being the "token Catholic" Paradigm10, Sat Jan 21 15:21There are many Catholics who inspire me and who are much more inspiring than I am. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP2rLgrBtTI&feature=related
- Thank you for the link Mirage, Sat Jan 21 16:48It's interesting that my father was a very thankful person. He was an atheist or agnostic, but he was always talking about how thankful he was that we were born, or that various other things had... more
- Don't apologize... Paradigm10, Sun Jan 22 08:48I was just being flippant, my bad. I'm not leaving because I'm upset, annoyed or frustrated. Maybe I should stay and fight the good fight but it's starting to bore me. I have a couple of projects and ... more
- I give thanks daily. Mirage, Sun Jan 22 10:17It took my mother 7 years of fertility treatments, multiple miscarriages, and a whole list of specialists in order to have me. Finally when time was running out for her (she was 39), she was given... more
- While is it wise not to put too much faith in doctors ... Baruch, Sun Jan 22 10:30sometimes they can be more useful than just "practicing" on patients at high expense. After my ex had a miscarriage with our first child, I met an older doctor at a Summer church retreat for men and... more
- Re: While is it wise not to put too much faith in doctors ... Mirage, Sun Jan 22 10:53I don't think whatever the doctor gave my mother was as dangerous as DES, which made it through the system here. He had apparently been using it for years in Europe.
- FDA ia a front organization for Big Pharma (nm) Baruch, Sun Jan 22 11:20
- Even just two generations ago ... Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:06Catholics in America were routinely demonized by American Protestants, though a lot of the initial impetus came from ethnic hatred going back to Irish, Italian and Polish immigration to the US ...... more
- textbooks Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:25In both public and private schools, my history textbooks nearly always portrayed the Catholic church as the villain. I'm surprised if yours didn't. This is a heavily Protestant country. Textbooks are ... more
- I guess I went to better schools ... Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:32sounds like your textbooks were from the 1930s! My daughter's social studies textbooks in public school weren't particularly biased at all, except for political correctness and a tendency to ignore... more
- Well... Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:41Feynman was on the committee for awhile. I think at that point the rest of the committee were probably Protestants. It's possible there might have been one or more Jews when I was a kid. Jews did no... more
- I would be sorry to see you go Frashavan, Fri Jan 20 16:54I agree, iPirate is annoying. I stopped responding to him a while back. But you make good observations and excellent points, it would be a shame to lose you.
- Excellent question ... Baruch, Fri Jan 20 12:51
- Anti-rational? Baruch, Fri Jan 20 23:52Well we have to be careful, not to project things of the present, back into prior ages. In the 1st century CE, there was no such thing as theology as has existed over the last 1000 years. Logic had... more
- Re: Excellent question ... ipirate2, Fri Jan 20 13:27Thanks. I look forward to it. Regards DL
- Of course you do... Paradigm10, Fri Jan 20 13:29it's not like you have any thing else to look forward to.
- That wasn't an excellent question at all. Paradigm10, Fri Jan 20 13:27It was a series of questions presupposing the credulity of Christians.
- Debates with strawmen are in vogue. (nm) Mirage, Fri Jan 20 18:34
- Don't pick on the Scarecrow ... Baruch, Fri Jan 20 18:49you remember it was the last thing the Wicked Witch did, before Dorothy liquidated her ;-) Shalom
- The whole point of the scarecrow Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:29is that he was mistaken for nothing but a strawman, but he turned out to be smart.
- In many ways he represented the common farmer ... Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:34just as the Tinman represented factory workers, and the Cowardly Lion represented the ordinary soldier/policeman. Shalom
- What you are reacting to ... Baruch, Fri Jan 20 18:19is the usual way iPirate posts. This is a rarity, an actual question that isn't rhetorical. Historically Christianity is anti-rational ... not that is anything bad mind you. I believe in... more