OCRT Forum - Smoke-screening again! (nm)

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Kasey
Smoke-screening again! (nm)
Sun Jan 22, 2012 08:21
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What’s with Protestants and Catholics and their hate of know — ipirate2, Fri Jan 20 11:43

What’s with Protestants and Catholics and their hate of knowledge? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Xv4mV1BIs In the early years, the Catholics hierarchy was against the reading of scriptures. In... more
Great blanket statement! — MN_Morgan, Mon Jan 23 13:58

I find you confusingly dualistic. What branch do you belong to again?
Re: Great blanket statement! — ipirate2, Mon Jan 23 15:10

Gnostic Christian naturalist is my closest label. Confusion is likely from my poor writing style. I am not English. Regards DL
Nevermind — MN_Morgan, Mon Jan 23 18:38

I meant what specific Gnostic tradition do you come from, because there are many traditions popping back up.
OK, here goes... — Mirage, Sat Jan 21 20:28

First off, the title of your post assumes that Protestants and Catholics do hate knowledge. Are you asking Catholics and Protestants to answer this question, or would you prefer that Dawkins answer... more
Brava! — Frashavan, Sat Jan 21 21:52

Very nicely done...
Factual knowledge wiould destroy most religions/ideologies! (nm) — Kasey, Sat Jan 21 08:28

What makes you think so? — Mirage, Sat Jan 21 16:50

We've made a fair number of scientific discoveries over the years, and last time I checked, there are still a lot of religions and ideologies.
Indoctrination is the root cause! (nm) — Kasey, Mon Jan 23 22:22

But how many based on actual facts???? (nm) — Kasey, Sun Jan 22 02:07

Every experience and perception of experience ... — Baruch, Sun Jan 22 05:48

is factual, and every interpretation of all that, is factual. It just isn't usually objective. The Behaviorist school of psychology, had a s a dogma, that if you can't see it, it isn't real ... so as ... more
Smoke-screening again! (nm) — Kasey, Sun Jan 22 08:21
Those who are most brainwashed ... — Baruch, Sun Jan 22 10:05

are the one's who can't see who they are ... so who did your brainwashing, yourself perhaps? Or do you blame your parents or your culture? Shalom
Wide ranging research with an open mind! (nm) — Kasey, Mon Jan 23 04:54

I do, thanks ... and you? ;-0 (nm) — Baruch, Mon Jan 23 06:31

Keeping an open mind on any topic.... — Kasey, Mon Jan 23 07:51

before any research is finished...and it often isn't, can be the key to decision making based on all the evidence from as many possible valid sources as possible. Giving me zero credit for this is... more
Different issue, hotly disputed. (nm) — Mirage, Sun Jan 22 02:44

Re: Factual knowledge wiould destroy most religions/ideologies! — ipirate2, Sat Jan 21 11:04

For sure. Things will not improve till believers recognize that all religions began as myths and until we return to that more healthy thinking, fools will always have a place to go. Regards DL
Your understanding of the word "myth" is lacking (nm) — Frashavan, Sat Jan 21 19:38

You're right, I do have a place to go. — Mirage, Sat Jan 21 16:56

This fool is grateful for that.
There are very few realists ... — Baruch, Sat Jan 21 13:32

because reality sucks! Idealism is much more comfortable. Shalom
Lack of bias, destroys all bias ... QED — Baruch, Sat Jan 21 09:42

People mostly believe and do what they believe and do because of bias. Remove the bias, and they mostly no longer know what to think or what to do. Facts are like rocks, they are useful to bash... more
This post will take some time to answer. — Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:11

Stay tuned. You make a number of assertions, and ask a number of questions here. I hope I can get to it all but really some of the things you are asking here people have dedicated their entire adult... more
Well I am glad you take this particular post ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:16

of iPirate seriously. Most of the time he is an ideological agent-provacatuer, not unlike the New Atheists. Shalom
I think he is entirely serious about them. — Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:27

So I will attempt to answer, but I am poorly qualified in many ways.
Did you read my anti-rationalist post below ... — Baruch, Sun Jan 22 06:04

I put near my original post to the seed of this string. I think I was rather nice about Catholicism ;-) Shalom
Re: Did you read my anti-rationalist post below ... — Mirage, Sun Jan 22 07:43

Have read it several times and opened the wiki an awful lot. Catholic theology has always impressed me. I can see why Jews like to marry Catholics. Torah study impressed me also when I had the honor... more
A good heart is superior to a good mind (nm) — Baruch, Sun Jan 22 07:59

We can only try, and your answers will be unique ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:30

so only you can make them. My approach will be typically addressing the deep history, rather than the contemporary situation. Shalom
What's with all the assumptions? — Paradigm10, Fri Jan 20 13:21

Why do you think that Christians hate knowledge? According to Proverbs 1:29 it is those who refuse to worship the Lord who hate knowledge. Why do you hate knowledge? The Church does not fear an... more
Definitely an obsession of his ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:19

not unlike Kasey, but gnostic rather than atheist. If Kasey wasn't fixated on Muslims, but Catholics, I think we would consider her a poster of headlines for longer iPirate articles ;-) Too bad if... more
If Kasey were fixated on Catholics... — Paradigm10, Sat Jan 21 14:50

you wouldn't give it a second thought. Muslims are the new Jews after all and as such they seem to be your poster child of religious tolerance.
That is a ridiculaous comparison.... — Kasey, Sun Jan 22 02:19

being anti-Semetic is part of Islamic ideology.....it's in their book and applied rigorously anywhere its followers get a chance. Even in France today, Jews are moving out because of the increasing... more
Take it up with Baruch... — Paradigm10, Sun Jan 22 08:23

I was parroting him. It would have never occurred to me to come up with that on my own.
So do you favor Buddhism then? — Baruch, Sun Jan 22 05:52

If not, why not ... some forms are non-theist. And with the exception of Japan, Buddhism has always been pacifist. Historically it has a better reputation than any other major religion. Even... more
Both are by number ... — Baruch, Sat Jan 21 22:47

large and therefore dangerous. If Catholic countries (by culture) were being invaded militarily, I would be more concerned for Catholics. But they are being defrauded by the German, British and... more
Re: What's with all the assumptions? — ipirate2, Fri Jan 20 13:32

Thanks for all the personal B S while ignoring the question. "The Catholic tradition says authentic faith never involves a sacrifice of the intellect" Then WTF is this? “Faith must trample under foot ... more
That was a bit rough ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:14

but at least not too scatological. Well there you have it, the Catholic Church today, which is not the Catholic Church of yesteryear. Do you really consider development over time irrelevant? Though... more
Re: That was a bit rough ... — ipirate2, Fri Jan 20 19:38

Rather disingenuous when you might remember that I believe in telepathy. I am quite open to the unseen. Not to miracles by an absentee God who wants to control me and whose morals are closer to... more
Re: That was a bit rough ... — Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:46

If you are interested in telepathy, you might find the current debate on mirror neurons of interest as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neurons
Re: That was a bit rough ... — ipirate2, Fri Jan 20 20:03

Thanks. Having experienced it, I have no need to debate it but will check it out. I also do not push the notion as I have no proof to show and that is what belief takes for me. Regards DL
Re: That was a bit rough ... — Mirage, Sat Jan 21 05:18

I think we may be coming closer to having some scientific information relevant to your experience and the experiences of many many other people.
Re: That was a bit rough ... — ipirate2, Sat Jan 21 11:13

Noetic sciences are working on it and making some headway but from what I read, their ideas of telepathy do not quite match mine. This does not invalidate what they do but to me, they are just on the ... more
Synchronicity ... — Baruch, Sat Jan 21 13:36

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity Shalom
Thought as Bonfire of the Vanities (nm) — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:54

But your telepathy isn't supernatural ;-) — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:43

The unseen is simply not yet explained by science, or do I mistake you on this? I think most of your vituperativeness is against institutional religion (I don't like it either) ... and you could be... more
Re: But your telepathy isn't supernatural ;-) — ipirate2, Fri Jan 20 20:08

Yes. Paul even had to complain that he had become everything to everyone. No wonder he was successful. He knew how to play the crowd. Not much of what he wrote was his BTW.... more
Which question? There were eight in all. — Paradigm10, Fri Jan 20 13:46

I didn't ignore any of the questions. I addressed each and every question and left it up to you to draw out the answers from the questions that I asked you. Why are you ignoring my questions? Martin... more
I hope you come back, just ignore iPirate ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:09

you are always interesting, when you share a part of who you are. Shalom
Please don't leave, if possible. — Mirage, Fri Jan 20 18:25

Remember that for every poster here, there are many lurkers. Roman Catholicism is heartily demonized in textbooks in America. I do not know if that is also true in Europe or not, but I have seen... more
I'm not interested in being the "token Catholic" — Paradigm10, Sat Jan 21 15:21

There are many Catholics who inspire me and who are much more inspiring than I am. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP2rLgrBtTI&feature=related
Thank you for the link — Mirage, Sat Jan 21 16:48

It's interesting that my father was a very thankful person. He was an atheist or agnostic, but he was always talking about how thankful he was that we were born, or that various other things had... more
Don't apologize... — Paradigm10, Sun Jan 22 08:48

I was just being flippant, my bad. I'm not leaving because I'm upset, annoyed or frustrated. Maybe I should stay and fight the good fight but it's starting to bore me. I have a couple of projects and ... more
I give thanks daily. — Mirage, Sun Jan 22 10:17

It took my mother 7 years of fertility treatments, multiple miscarriages, and a whole list of specialists in order to have me. Finally when time was running out for her (she was 39), she was given... more
While is it wise not to put too much faith in doctors ... — Baruch, Sun Jan 22 10:30

sometimes they can be more useful than just "practicing" on patients at high expense. After my ex had a miscarriage with our first child, I met an older doctor at a Summer church retreat for men and... more
Re: While is it wise not to put too much faith in doctors ... — Mirage, Sun Jan 22 10:53

I don't think whatever the doctor gave my mother was as dangerous as DES, which made it through the system here. He had apparently been using it for years in Europe.
FDA ia a front organization for Big Pharma (nm) — Baruch, Sun Jan 22 11:20

Even just two generations ago ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:06

Catholics in America were routinely demonized by American Protestants, though a lot of the initial impetus came from ethnic hatred going back to Irish, Italian and Polish immigration to the US ...... more
textbooks — Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:25

In both public and private schools, my history textbooks nearly always portrayed the Catholic church as the villain. I'm surprised if yours didn't. This is a heavily Protestant country. Textbooks are ... more
I guess I went to better schools ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:32

sounds like your textbooks were from the 1930s! My daughter's social studies textbooks in public school weren't particularly biased at all, except for political correctness and a tendency to ignore... more
Well... — Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:41

Feynman was on the committee for awhile. I think at that point the rest of the committee were probably Protestants. It's possible there might have been one or more Jews when I was a kid. Jews did no... more
Alas, at least for my daughter ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:47

social studies were a small part of the curriculum anyway, just another impractical thing (compared to becoming a fascist drone) to be cut from the school budget, like art and music. After all,... more
I would be sorry to see you go — Frashavan, Fri Jan 20 16:54

I agree, iPirate is annoying. I stopped responding to him a while back. But you make good observations and excellent points, it would be a shame to lose you.
Excellent question ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 12:51

Well please look at the bigger picture. Martin Luther gets too much credit sometimes ... there were prior movements within Catholicism that emphasized colloquial reading of the Bible, though this was ... more
Anti-rational? — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 23:52

Well we have to be careful, not to project things of the present, back into prior ages. In the 1st century CE, there was no such thing as theology as has existed over the last 1000 years. Logic had... more
Re: Excellent question ... — ipirate2, Fri Jan 20 13:27

Thanks. I look forward to it. Regards DL
Of course you do... — Paradigm10, Fri Jan 20 13:29

it's not like you have any thing else to look forward to.
That wasn't an excellent question at all. — Paradigm10, Fri Jan 20 13:27

It was a series of questions presupposing the credulity of Christians.
Debates with strawmen are in vogue. (nm) — Mirage, Fri Jan 20 18:34

Don't pick on the Scarecrow ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 18:49

you remember it was the last thing the Wicked Witch did, before Dorothy liquidated her ;-) Shalom
The whole point of the scarecrow — Mirage, Fri Jan 20 19:29

is that he was mistaken for nothing but a strawman, but he turned out to be smart.
In many ways he represented the common farmer ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 19:34

just as the Tinman represented factory workers, and the Cowardly Lion represented the ordinary soldier/policeman. Shalom
What you are reacting to ... — Baruch, Fri Jan 20 18:19

is the usual way iPirate posts. This is a rarity, an actual question that isn't rhetorical. Historically Christianity is anti-rational ... not that is anything bad mind you. I believe in... more
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