MirageIs your message for everyone, or just Christians?Mon Mar 5, 2012 17:25220.127.116.11Hello there. I am a Christian but I wasn't always a Christian and when I read this post I thought back to how I would have seen it before I was a Christian. If you are interested in non Christians at all, many of them aren't going to understand your Biblical quotes without more explanation. Terms like repent or confessing with thy mouth, for example. Not everyone is going to know how to translate. They might not be sure what you are telling them to do. They might also ask questions like these:
"What is heaven like and why would I want to go there other than to avoid hell?"
"How do I know there really is a heaven and hell and are these things literal?"
"If I tell God I am sorry for my sins but then I keep doing them have I repented?"
"If I say out loud I accept Jesus am I done or do I have to keep saying it? Can I say it in private or do I need to say it in public?"
"What happens if I accept Jesus but then something really bad happens in my life and I start having doubts or there are times I don't believe? Do I lose salvation?"
"What happens to people who have never heard of Jesus? Do they all go to hell? Wouldn't that be unfair of God?"
"Do I have to get baptized too or does that matter?"
"What is Grace?"
I know you are trying to spread the Good News. I hope this post will help you understand where a lot of non-Christians and even a lot of Christians are. I couldn't answer all of these questions myself even now. When I was younger and trying to decide whether or not I believed, people used to hand me pamphlets like this and it was like a foreign language to me. It didn't reach me because I didn't understand all these terms in a Christian context and it just confused me. What eventually reached me was reading all the words of Jesus in a red letter Bible on my own and some events in my life that made me more aware of God.
- THE WAY TO HEAVEN mark 42, Mon Mar 5 09:57Do you have the peace of sins forgiven, and a hope beyond the grave? We need to be prepared to meet God before it is too late. Are you ready? If you died today, do you know if you would make it to... more
- mark 42 blilith, Tue Apr 10 06:00Dearest, Do you just push out your cant or quotes from your book, or actually post something that is meaningful and helpful to this group. You should not be here you seem to be intolerant of any... more
- Y'know... MN_Morgan, Thu Mar 8 10:58I used to hand out tracts too (when I was still a little baby in Christ and didn't know how to talk to people still), so I stopped doing that because it didn't do a bit of good for anyone. My faith... more
- Re: Y'know... Mirage, Thu Mar 8 22:51Evolution for me. Learning about it just blew me away. I know that must seem very strange to some people who feel evolution and religion don't mix. I sometimes tell them well, maybe God works in... more
- Biochemistry is awesome evidence ... for those who can see (nm) Baruch, Thu Mar 8 16:51
- VIKE: An excerpt from the Elain Plagels book Frashavan, Tue Mar 6 17:23http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203753704577253611876502848.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read By ELAINE PAGELS The Book of Revelation is the strangest book in the Bible, and the most... more
- Revelations is about hoped for destruction of Rome ... Baruch, Tue Mar 6 23:28by Jews with the aid of Persia. It elicited notions of Christian super-cessionism to reconcile Gentile Christianity with its message of the the rewarded martyrs of the Twelve Tribes. When it talks... more
- Re: Revelations MN_Morgan, Thu Mar 8 10:32I know full and well what the document was written for, but if you dig anywhere, you can find a buried treasure all your own. I can find the outermost, the outer, the inner, and the secret if I look... more
- Agreed. One can overdue the reductionism Frashavan, Thu Mar 8 17:26One thing that give scriputres significance is their applicability to a wide variety of situations. That can be, often is, strained, but it is real.
- You are a person who knows ... Baruch, Thu Mar 8 16:58Jewish Bible interpretation is four-fold. Peshat, Remez, Drash and Sod .... Literal, Allegorical, Comparative and Esoteric. And acronym spelling ... Pardes ... the original Persian word from which we ... more
- I'm still learning... MN_Morgan, Fri Mar 9 11:16how to not catch my own reflection and stare at it till I grow into the bank. I've already had to uproot myself a few times.
- Like the wandering yucca trees in the animation, Rango? (nm) Baruch, Fri Mar 9 12:44
- Never saw it, but I assume so ;D (nm) MN_Morgan, Fri Mar 9 13:11
- Just part of the great deception! (nm) Kasey, Tue Mar 6 06:24
- Shouldn't you capitalize The Great Deception? (nm) Mirage, Tue Mar 6 07:34
- Kasey being a contratian, perhaps it should be ... Frashavan, Tue Mar 6 07:41...tHE gREAT dECEPTION. My, doesn't that look odd??
- Was your mind, like amny others, religiously formatted Kasey, Wed Mar 7 04:47early on to be receptive to the mythology and superstitious doctrines, dogmas and beliefs promoted by religion? [esp. the bits where some god or other said this or that]. How anyone can say that one... more
- One of the few lasting insights that Karl Marx ... Baruch, Thu Mar 8 17:01came up with, are "alienation" and "false consciousness". What I don't get, if you are fully skeptical, is why you aren't worried that your consciousness isn't as free as you think it is. And yes,... more
- If teachung children about ethics and morality... Kasey, Sat Mar 10 07:11is also referred to as indoctrination....then so be it....and tolerance and understanding of others is certainly part of it. But being aware of the prejudices that the different religions inculcate... more
- You are not the only one who observes ... Baruch, Sat Mar 10 09:16or matures. Again ... if you are alienated ... and you are ... how can you say you are not in a state of false consciousness? I know about this ... being subject to alienation frequently. Shalom
- If Atheism gives rise to alienation [as you assume].. Kasey, Sun Mar 11 09:30it is because theists have difficulty handling the concept that their beliefs about the claimed existence of a diety may be without a firm foundation! Regards, Kasey
- Beliefs? Baruch, Sun Mar 11 14:59Sounds like a faith, not reason to me. Next time you ... have difficulty reasoning, without assumptions, please share. By being different, and by choice no less ... from the average people of your... more
- I don't. It's called faith for a reason. (nm) Mirage, Sun Mar 11 09:40
- Just don't advocate that poetic devil ... Baruch, Tue Mar 6 13:47e e cummings. No caps allowed! Shalom
- Re: Kasey being a contratian, perhaps it should be ... Mirage, Tue Mar 6 07:46Actually a book with that title might be a best seller. It's really attention getting, and rather clever symbolism.
- Vike: Interesting article on Neo-Atheism Frashavan, Tue Mar 6 06:00http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2012/02/neo-atheism-atheists-dawkins although, "Two atheists and two agnostics were eating in a restaurant" sounds like the beginning of a joke, I think Appelyard ... more
- Reading all of it, and many comments as well ... Baruch, Tue Mar 6 14:18I found it an interesting summary of the last 20 years of atheism (post-Soviet). One must remember how many "fellow travelers" there still are in Europe, even England. And yes, assuming the secular... more
- Re: Vike: Interesting article on Neo-Atheism Mirage, Tue Mar 6 07:21I sort of saw this coming years ago. We are in a period of radicalization in general. It's particularly inevitable this would happen to atheism and factions would arise because atheism has never been ... more
- Which would you consider preferable...... Kasey, Wed Mar 7 04:59the massive mosque which was proposed but thwarted, opposite the new Olympic stadium in London for this year's games, or this Atheist temple being proposed instead? Regards, Kasey
- Both Muslims and Atheists have a right to build buildings. Mirage, Wed Mar 7 13:50Some people might feel both were a threat. I don't. I'm afraid I am not familiar with why the mosque was denied. If it was because it's a mosque and not for other reasons such as parking issues, I am ... more
- That's fine to think that way..however Kasey, Thu Mar 8 06:17in the case suggested, one is a statement of supremacy in your face, showing that Islam is here to dominate and eventually conquer whether you like it or not....the other is for a meeting place for... more
- Re: That's fine to think that way..however Mirage, Thu Mar 8 22:54I disagree that the purpose of a place of worship is necessarily to proclaim dominance. Maybe they just want somewhere to pray. I am sure there are people who will object to the atheist temple using... more
- Who are you trying to kid other than... Kasey, Sat Mar 10 07:19yourself....it wasn't others different religious fanatics that blew up vehicles in London recently as part of a world-wide campaign of terror., the very location of what was proposed. Are you aware... more
- Kasey, are things ok where you are? Mirage, Sat Mar 10 18:58You seem very distressed lately, and it's starting to worry me. Are there hate crimes going on where you live? Do you feel you are in danger there? I am asking because if you need to get away for... more
- Thanks for the advice and I sincerely hope... Kasey, Sun Mar 11 09:46that you medical condition improves esp. with faith in yourself and a positive attitude to your own health no matter how difficult things become. I'm a realist to world events and call them as I see... more
- That was very compassionate ;-) (nm) Baruch, Sat Mar 10 20:05
- Perhaps only a N American Mormon theocracy ... Baruch, Sat Mar 10 09:25would cure you of your obsession with Muslims? The followers of Caliph Umar want the same thing as the British Empire (now known as the American Empire). Can you blame them? Shalom
- Faith in any falacy will only lead to insecurity! (nm) Kasey, Tue Mar 13 06:39
- Re: Who are you trying to kid other than... Mirage, Sat Mar 10 08:13People who do that are criminals, but when homegrown terrorists here blew up buildings in Oklahoma city, we didn't decide not to allow any Christian churches to be built nearby because some of those... more
- Your one in the USA was a one off and Kasey, Tue Mar 13 06:45anything to do with Ireland was as much RC v's Protestant as it was Irish nationalism and neither was on a world wide jihad campaign to enforce their will. That does need to be remembered.... more
- Believers in vast conspiracies ... Baruch, Sat Mar 10 09:29see the evidence they want to see, based on their loves and hates ... including who was really behind 9/11 perhaps? Lots of conspiracy theories there ... and Kasey isn't even considering those... more
- Temples aren't just social ... Baruch, Fri Mar 9 06:53they have a way of bringing out our sense of the numious, which is hard to do when you are cleaning the cat box ;-) Shalom
- Numinous ... (nm) Baruch, Fri Mar 9 06:54
- Unitarian Universalists ... Baruch, Thu Mar 8 17:05have their own congregations, and I think you would enjoy some of them ... because some are quite humanist, while others are more Indian influenced. But notice under conditions of free association... more
- Perhaps atheists don't tend to congregate ... Baruch, Wed Mar 7 16:58because each is a rugged individualist, that came to atheism, each by their own route ... and therefore have nothing in common other than either being anti-religious or indifferent to religion.... more
- Actually Mirage, Wed Mar 7 18:14I have certainly seen instances in which atheists wanted things removed from schools, and my own parents had me excused from a Nativity play once by asking that I be allowed to play one of the... more
- I think you miss the fundamental point that..... Kasey, Thu Mar 8 06:32once a child's mind has been formatted to be receptive to a particular set of religious ideas and doctrines, it is pre-conditioned to not think otherwise. That's what makes Christianity, Judaism,... more
- alright then,... Mirage, Thu Mar 8 23:00I believe you were probably exposed to this stuff as a child and perhaps you even were religious at some point. How did you escape then? Every single atheist I have known personally was raised in... more
- For once, in this different setting and... Kasey, Sat Mar 10 07:33application, the saying "The Truth will set you free" can be applied to all who have moved to Atheism. Since most societies at present in the trend of historical reckoning, most peoiple still live... more
- Catholic to Wiccan makes sense ... Baruch, Fri Mar 9 06:52I won't be as catty as I could be here ;-) Catholics perhaps still have wonder and magic in their views ... not as realist and dry as the Protestant view. Shalom
- Well that is factual ... Baruch, Thu Mar 8 17:08imprinting was pretty well proven by Konrad Lorenz, though he did cause the neighbors to stare while waddling around and quacking, while leading ducklings around. I don't think it is reasonable, to... more
- Long but good article ... Baruch, Tue Mar 6 06:50will have to read it more later. Initial impressions ... the idea of an atheist temple is curious, but the same guy who proposed that says ... "religion is too important to be left to believers" ...... more
- if Jesus sai ram, Mon Mar 5 17:48if jesus died for our sins...what do we have to worry about?....and just what does this mean Jesus died for our sins...if we still can go straight to Hell?......sai ram.
- Is your message for everyone, or just Christians? Mirage, Mon Mar 5 17:25
- Good, and a few more Frashavan, Mon Mar 5 20:09If God knows everything, then surely He already knows if I am saved or not. Why is he going through this elaborate charade of having me choose? How can I make a choice, if God already knows what my... more
- Just as contradictory as many Koranic verses! (nm) Kasey, Tue Mar 6 06:26
- Now that is why St Augustine of Hippo said .... Baruch, Mon Mar 5 20:27Hell was made for people who ask questions like that! Probably because those are questions the clergy have a hard time answering. I was married to clergy, and I can tell you from first hand... more
- The theologians and philosophers ruin... Frashavan, Mon Mar 5 21:07...faith and religion, both. They want to be clever, and impute to god all sorts of things that are no where attested. One of the things I find most hilarious about "Bible-believing" protestantism is ... more
- Well that is the fault of the Renaissance ... Baruch, Mon Mar 5 22:03is it not. Brought all those non-Christian Greek and Roman writers back into vogue ;-) Without the Renaissance (starting with Petrarch) and printing, there would be no Reformation. And without the... more
- In part, but that would let Catholic Orthodoxy off the hook Frashavan, Tue Mar 6 08:12They, also, share the pagan/philosophical conception of YHWH... but, of course, they have lots of extraneous influences. Identifying them was the main concern of the Protestants; a case of straining... more
- The requirements of nascent nationalism .... Baruch, Tue Mar 6 13:25required some kind of repudiation of Catholic internationalism. So excuses would have been made ... even if as insubstantial as the E Orthodox crossing themselves opposite to the Catholics. Since... more
- One sees that most clearly in... Frashavan, Tue Mar 6 15:46...Lutheranism and Anglicanism, both of which managed rapprochement with Eastern Orthodoxy, by conveniently overlooking all the things that RC and Orthodoxy have in common. A case of "the enemy of my ... more
- At one time during the Christian-Muslim conflicts .... Baruch, Tue Mar 6 23:42of the 16th century, the French and Venetians were allied with the Ottomans. But the Germans caught up to that, in the 20th century. Shalom
- The Devil is in the details ... in any religion ... Baruch, Mon Mar 5 20:06Also in the past, I also benefited, by reducing my scope, to just red letter words in the NT I was reading back then ... and then having done that, expanded from there. Jesus centered understanding... more
- Deception unlimited! (nm) Kasey, Tue Mar 6 06:27
- Not necessarily ... Baruch, Tue Mar 6 13:41one can be both honest and mistaken ... or honest and variant (when truth is hard to nail down). Not everyone is dishonest, or even latitudinarian when hardness is required. Shalom
- Re: The Devil is in the details ... in any religion ... Mirage, Tue Mar 6 03:56I think it was good for me to learn on my own. It meant that if I didn't understand something I had to research it. It meant that I didn't have anyone summarizing it for me in a way I might not have... more
- I love you for that! Frashavan, Tue Mar 6 06:03You wrote: " I met the one that wants me to feed His sheep. That there is "works." I also read that part about faith without works being dead." Thanks for saying that...but, more importantly, thanks... more
- Re: I love you for that! Mirage, Tue Mar 6 07:44Thanks, I wish I did more about it than I have. I think maybe life without works is dead. I don't think a person has to be religious to understand. Religion though...I know Buddhism, Judaism, Hare... more
- Perhaps a religion without works ... Baruch, Tue Mar 6 13:29does deserve the title of being a mere cult. There have been a few of those. But I think without works, they don't last much past the founder. Shakers for example, are mostly noted for good... more
- To be fair, the Shakers had their good works taken away Frashavan, Tue Mar 6 15:51They used to provide a lot of social support -- orphans, abandoned families, the indigent elderly and sick, etc. Between the State taking over some of these jobs, and preventing others (such as... more
- I Agree Mirage, Tue Mar 6 21:09Works to the Shakers took many forms, and indeed I feel that they felt/feel that hard work itself is a form of works. I am not going to dismiss the beautiful crafts they made as meaningless because I ... more
- The fruits of secularism Frashavan, Tue Mar 6 08:15And I don't mean the caricature that chat-show radio hosts go on about. If you live in time, in the world, then you inevitably spend more effort "where you live" so to speak. I think it's likely... more
- Modernity is still the primary religion in the West ... Baruch, Tue Mar 6 13:37that is why fundamentalism has sprung up everywhere, to resist it, and particularly the secularism and materialism that go along with modernity. But with post-modernity, what is that? I can only see... more
- Well, you may get to see that when Mitt gets elected (nm) Frashavan, Tue Mar 6 15:47
- Good quotes, but what do they mean? Baruch, Mon Mar 5 16:14Who am I? Who is G-d? Who is Jesus? What does salvation mean? What is life? What is death? Salvation is related to salve, a ointment or medicine. If salvation comes thru Jesus, then Jesus is a kind... more