FrashavanReflections on the latest blunder ....Sun Mar 11, 2012 06:2799.235.84.63The only thing I think he got wrong was the bit about how Americnas would react if a bunch of Mulsims, who happened to be stationed on US soil for the duration, happened to burn some copies of the Bible. The better analogy would be to burning the Constitution or Declaration of Indpendence...
I thought this line was very appropriate, too, "the imperial mindset is utterly incapable of comprehending the logic of reciprocity. "
Full text follows: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/03/20123785644715832.html
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Quran burning: Mistake, crime, and metaphor
Santa Barbara, CA - On February 20, 2012 several US soldiers - five of whom have so far been identified - took some Islamic writings, including several copies of the Quran, to a landfill on Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan where they were burned.
As soon as Afghan workers on the scene realised that Qurans were being burned, it was recognised as an act of desecration, and they immediately launched a protest. The protest spread rapidly throughout the country, and turned violent, resulting in at least 30 Afghan deaths, five dead US soldiers, and many non-lethal casualties. The incident is under formal investigation by three distinct boards of inquiry: a US military investigation with authority to recommend disciplinary action against the soldiers; a joint US/Afghan undertaking; and an Afghan investigation leading to recommendations by a council of religious figures.
The US governmental response has been apologetic in tone, but weakly so. President Obama sent a formal apology to the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, expressing regret and explaining that the incident occurred due to carelessness rather than as a deliberate expression of Islamophobia.
In contrast, a reactionary backlash in the US complained that it was the Afghan government that should be apologising, given the loss of US lives and an outburst of violence that was much exaggerated given the accidental nature of the provocation. The reactionary Republican presidential candidate, Rick Santorum, expressed his view in the following language of rebuke: "I think the response need to be apologised for, by Mr Karzai and the Afghan people, for attacking our men and women in uniform and reacting to this inadvertent mistake." He added: "This is the real crime, not what our soldier did."
'Non-apology'
Obama - as usual in such situations - seemed caught in the headlights, publicly justifying the apology as necessary "to save lives ... and to make sure that our troops who are there right now are not placed in further danger". Such a rationale leads to an ironic query: when is an "apology" not an apology? The answer seems to be: when Obama wants to appease foreign anger while at the same time not seeming to weaken his patriotic credentials. In my view he loses ground with both constituencies. Maybe Hillary Clinton had a point during the 2008 campaign for the presidential nomination when she famously taunted Obama: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
What is baffling is the unlearning evident here. There were earlier well-publicised desecrations of the Quran that showed how intense a reaction could result from such behaviour. An outcry followed the disclosure that a Quran had been flushed down a toilet in Guantanamo a few years ago. Somewhat later, a US soldier in Iraq was found to have used a Quran for target practice, which provoked a storm of angry denunciations of the US presence in the country.
And then there was the shocking spectacle of Reverend Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida, announcing to his tiny congregation that he would burn 200 Qurans on the anniversary of 9/11 in 2010, an outrage despite its non-governmental character. The planned burning was successfully discouraged, at least temporarily. But on March 20, 2011 the determined Rev Jones held a "trial of the Quran", found it guilty of crimes against humanity, and burned a Quran in the church sanctuary.
The result in the Afghan city of Mazar-i-Sharif was an attack on the UN Assistance Mission, killing at least 30, including seven UN workers, and injuring 150. Our man in Kabul, Hamid Karzai, called for the arrest of Jones, but such a request was ignored, and his conduct discounted as an expression of the freedom of religion in the US that did not reflect official views.
One would have supposed that a vigilant imperialism would have understood that any disrespect towards the Quran, whether public or private, delivers a severe blow against the US mission in Afghanistan. At least with US troops, such an experience would have led to introducing the most rigorous means to train and discipline occupation forces accordingly. It is not an exaggeration to say that such displays of disrespect for the Quran are more serious setbacks than dramatic defeats on the battlefield. Why? Because it so clearly discredits the US claim to be a humanitarian benefactor by its presence in Afghanistan.
Symbol of unity
There is something deeply disturbing about this compulsive inability to show respect for the most sacred artifacts of a foreign civilisation. The Quran is the holiest of scripture in Afghanistan - not only because Islam is the dominant religion of the country, but also because it underpins the unity embedded in the wider cultural identity of the Afghan people. It is a more potent symbol of Afghan unity than the national flag or constitution in this otherwise most fragmented of countries.
Americans would react furiously, and likely violently, were the Bible to be burned by foreign military personnel somehow present on national territory, but the truth is that the imperial mindset is utterly incapable of comprehending the logic of reciprocity. The contradictory logic of imperium has a different ethic: the wrongs that we do to others we occasionally will excuse as accidental, while being incapable of even imagining that others might dare to do them to us - and if they were stupid enough to do such, a righteous fury would be unleashed.
Tom Friedman, whose arrogance is as boundless as the globalisation he blandly celebrates, tells his readers that Afghan political and religious leaders have made themselves primarily at fault for their failure to protest strongly against "the killing of innocent Americans", especially given the accidental nature of the Quran desecration and Obama's apology. The liberal interpretation of the incident is only softer in tone than Santorum's reactionary rant.
In an important sense, these soldiers, including those who participated in this unfortunate incident, were truly "innocent". They are themselves both participants and victims of an occupation of a foreign country that should never have been attempted, and is proving as futile as those many prior Western attempts to domesticate Afghanistan well-chronicled in Deepak Tripathi's illuminating book, "Breeding Ground: Afghanistan and the Origins of Islamist Terrorism."
Those who are most responsible, in my judgment, are those who have mandated such a war, and this includes the president and those who favoured the war policies that have led to a misguided, ten-year military presence in Afghanistan with few results except this upsurge of vitriolic anti-American sentiment and a torn country. The best that the United States can hope for after inflicting such an ordeal is some deal negotiated with the Taliban, the original mortal enemy, which portends a political future for Afghanistan not at all to Washington's liking (nor is the prospect of an empowered Taliban consoling to the majority of Afghans). After all those billions spent; lives lost, sacrificed, and misshaped; and devastation wrought, there is nothing left but the slim hope of learning from defeat after the fact. With the Iran war drums beating, it seems like an idle fancy that the US political elite will seek the intensive rehab it needs to have any chance of recovering from its addictive militarism.
Touching nerves
Of course, unleashing violence in response to desecration does make for a sorry spectacle, and reflects badly on the quality of religious leadership in Afghanistan. At the same time, Afghan clerical leadership's call for an end to nighttime raids on Afghan homes and their insistence on the US military turning over the administration of prisons to the Afghan government seem like reasonable demands. They touch the raw nerve of the US occupation, and for this reason will not be accommodated. These US-run activities have been consistently perceived by the Afghan people as principal sources of "occupation terror".
The response of US officials to these demands sounds as though it were lifted from a colonial handbook: that raids in the middle of the night are effective operations, and that the Afghan judicial system is not capable of the handling the legal issues associated with dangerous Afghan detainees. Such a response unintentionally poses an awkward question: Who governs Afghanistan at this time? It has long been the case that the limits of Karzai's mandate are not set in Kabul, but by distant Pentagon and White House officials - a reality that makes a mockery of US claims of respect for Afghan rights of self-determination.
What is at stake touches on the essence of military intervention and foreign occupation, much more than the secondary question of whether to treat Quran burning as a mistake or a crime. It is, of course, from differing perspectives both a mistake and a crime, but aside from this, the Quran burning is a telling metaphor for all the many instances of flawed Western diplomacy, consisting of military intervention and foreign occupation.
Such types of diplomacy fly in the face of colonialism's collapse and the rise of non-Western religion and culture, and produce one costly geopolitical failure after another. To burn the most holy scripture of a culture, whether by inadvertence or calculation, is the most delegitimising acknowledgement of bad motives and intentions that one can imagine.
In this regard, Quran burning is as provocative an assault on Afghan political culture as was the self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi, with respect to the authoritarian cruelty in Tunisia under Ben Ali, who was driven from power as a direct result. The failure of the United States government even now to appreciate the seriousness of what has happened, despite several earlier intimations of the great popular significance attached to any show of disrespect towards Islam throughout the Muslim world, is monumentally discrediting to its claims of benevolence - and undermines its goal of quelling the global threat of anti-Western terrorism.
{Richard Falk is Albert G. Milbank Professor Emeritus of International Law at Princeton University and Visiting Distinguished Professor in Global and International Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He has authored and edited numerous publications spanning a period of five decades, most recently editing the volume International Law and the Third World: Reshaping Justice (Routledge, 2008).
He is currently serving his third year of a six year term as a United Nations Special Rapporteur on Palestinian human rights.]
What this showed sai ram, Sun Mar 11 09:53the burning of the Quran whether intentional or not and the resulting violent protest afterwards...showed really one thing...that islam isn't a religion of peace.....rather just the... more
No one has a monopoly of peace; no one has one of war (nm) Frashavan, Sun Mar 11 18:57
Vike: How is your ex doing? Mirage, Mon Mar 12 17:00I hope she is feeling some better.
Her ankle is mending nicely Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 17:24Her Bell's Palsy will take longer because they were slow to strat treatment, plus having fibromyalgia is a complication.
Re: Her ankle is mending nicely Mirage, Mon Mar 12 17:30It's unfortunate that a lot of times diagnosis is tricky enough that by the time the diagnosis can be made, the treatment should have started earlier. I've had that experience myself. She will remain ... more
Thanks so much Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 17:47I really appreciate it. The neurologist refused to answer the pages from the Emerg and the Internist for 3 days. The First World is superior ... Baruch, Sun Mar 11 20:46only because it has superior means of war. This was not so apparent in the days of Great Khan the Mongol Horde, or the Janissaries of the Sultan. The irony of the West, is because of amnesia, we... more
Amen to that MN_Morgan, Mon Mar 12 14:00Though, we certainly have a propensity for pissing people off with our big mouths and even bigger foreign policy stick.
Arrogance leads to a bad end ... Baruch, Mon Mar 12 18:07just ask the French aristocracy. Shalom
But the Wall Street bankers.... Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 18:13...keep ignoring the sound of guillotine blades being sharpened in the shadows.
That's because they think they are safe Mirage, Mon Mar 12 18:59Swiss bank accounts in case of emergency.
Fools say in their heart ... Baruch, Mon Mar 12 21:42that there is no retribution. They may escape before death, but none escape death. This may be as impersonal as karma, or as personal as Last Judgement. Pharaoh tried, but you really can't take it... more The ultimate arrogance ... Baruch, Mon Mar 12 18:20is that the aristocracy will pirouette on a dime when necessary, and assume the role of revolutionary cadre ... the people never noticing. The whole point is to remain in power, no matter the... more
It's easier for the faceless middle and lower aristos Frashavan, Tue Mar 13 18:36The people at the top, the Kohn brothers, Trump and the like, are too obvious. Phillipe L'Egalite also managed it, at first, but he was not in the direct succession. He lost his head, too, before the ... more
Our financial aristocray wants control .... Kasey, Thu Mar 15 22:11of the press, not press control, in their quest for continuation of manipulation of public opinion and ultimately our governments-both State and Federal. Regards, Kasey I know of no one who has ... (nm) Baruch, Tue Mar 13 21:47 Tit for Tat ... Baruch, Sun Mar 11 09:26http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17330205 But I don't think this is ordered from the top, a guy simply broke down over there from PTSD, when they usually break down when they get over here.... more
Wonder how many Qurans sai ram, Sun Mar 11 09:55have been burned up in missiles strikes?.....sai ram
That is the irony ... Baruch, Sun Mar 11 20:49the value of even one human being, who are routinely killed in those strikes, is worth a million Qurans. Shalom
But there's no point protesting the deaths of innocents! Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 16:18No one cares...now, if they were fetuses, maybe. :(
All part of on-going White supremacy ... Baruch, Mon Mar 12 18:05see my post above to our new visitor ... history doesn't pass, it layers. Ask a geologist. And yes, quite a few of our drone victims are innocent as defined in a court of law. Collateral damage of... more
History is always layers Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 18:15It's a good analogy.... and, since everything isn't fossilized, all interpretations of history are, necessarily, fragmentary.
We wish some people were innocuous fossils ... Baruch, Mon Mar 12 18:18but alas, the T-Rex still walks among us, in a stylish and expensive three-piece suite from Italy. But I shall never be a sloth, though my wife accused me ;-) This also means that history is like an... more
That's why some people get eaten alive by history (nm) Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 18:19
This is going to sound weird but... Mirage, Tue Mar 13 02:29I am not sure what you mean by people being eaten alive by history, but for some reason, that sounds like a really beautiful death to me. I don't want to be remembered. What did you mean by it?
I was thinking... Frashavan, Tue Mar 13 09:31...of the Irish, for example, who frequently allow the long history of wrongs and struggles to overwhelm them...or the Serbs and Croats who do the same. It's a terribly destructive thing. Some people ... more
I relate better to the oppressed than the oppressors ... Baruch, Tue Mar 13 12:54but I know I am both. A double depression ;-( Buddhism studies have helped me with this. I think that moksha or nirvana, is more difficult, not so much if one is remembered, as if oneself remembers.... more
Romy and Michele's High School Reunion Frashavan, Tue Mar 13 14:40...had it right, basically, we all end up hurting others, but we are to wrapped up in our own misery to notice it. We all do ... Baruch, Mon Mar 12 18:23all fall into the gaping maw of Kali aka Chronos/Saturn. All end up the same, but all struggle to do so with more pride than others. With reincarnation, this is a bad bargain, because you always have ... more Somewhat related... Mirage, Mon Mar 12 17:11http://ideas.time.com/2012/03/07/subject-for-debate-are-women-people/ Jessica Winter argues that women are not always considered people. Rather bitter humor.
Empowering... MN_Morgan, Tue Mar 13 12:17Now, I've considered myself one with all beings, all space, all planets, and the trees, the land, and the rocks, but I would not call myself a rock.
As a geologist, and fan of the Horta ... Baruch, Tue Mar 13 12:56I find that rather prejudiced ;-) Shalom
Oh great, I'm racist against rock-based people. :( (nm) MN_Morgan, Tue Mar 13 15:37 "Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor not a bricklayer!" (nm) Frashavan, Tue Mar 13 14:41 Pregnant women are people ... Baruch, Mon Mar 12 18:16but are special people, because of the baby. And unfortunately if you open the door a crack, a whole semi drives thru. Thus the move to declare all women of a certain age, pre-pregnant ... that at... more
Re: Pregnant women are people ... Mirage, Mon Mar 12 19:16I've always had difficulty categorizing things or people. I remember when we learned about the caste system my sister and I tried to figure out what caste our family would be but we got confused... more
My joy is great ... Baruch, Mon Mar 12 21:34my foolishness, has caused a ring to radiate outward ;-) My splashing about has not been the mere vanity of a self important rain drop, who thinks it caused the thunderstorm. Well we don't have as... more More like the Incas Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 20:46There are the Children of Gold, and the rest of us.... :(
The problem with being Children of the Sun ... Baruch, Mon Mar 12 21:39who have that skin of gold, whether Egyptian or Inca ... is that they burn up. But that is also part of necessary duality between fuel and fire. Some provide, others consume. Each fulfills their... more I would say there is more than a little turth to that Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 17:25It makes me very sad...
Me too (nm) Mirage, Mon Mar 12 17:39 Re: Reflections on the latest blunder .... Mirage, Sun Mar 11 09:07I've been seeing people burning our flag on TV and YouTube for years. Sometimes they are our own citizens, sometimes they are people we are fighting or their allies, and sometimes they are protesters ... more
Re: Reading, Learnings, and Burnings MN_Morgan, Sun Mar 11 12:03When I first converted, I read the whole thing from cover to cover before going back into the nitty gritties...but it's so easy to listen to the guys in the pulpit who inflate one or two verses for... more
I have told my students not to read the textbook, too Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 15:32Not joking though. I find many of the textbooks are written in an way that discourages students from finding anything easily, and they lack the skills to find things when it's difficult... when I try ... more
Textbooks, like war, are a racket ;-( Baruch, Mon Mar 12 21:48A real teacher knows and understands their material, and simply uses what is at appropriately at hand, to do whatever needs to be done. The goal of textbook publishers isn't to educate, but to simply ... more Don't blame you Mirage, Mon Mar 12 16:52My textbooks were so riddled with political distortions they were ridiculous sometimes. Feynman managed to get himself on the committee that selects textbooks at one point, and wrote about that... more Yeah, I could see that MN_Morgan, Mon Mar 12 15:54Luckily, our school was pretty good about keeping up the science books. My teacher kept a fire under their butts, though (hooray for Bunsen burners ;D). Now, he never used the questions or the labs... more Re: Reading, Learnings, and Burnings Mirage, Sun Mar 11 16:27When I was in grade school, a lot of the teachers would show us the movie after we read the book. I was never sure if that was a reward, or if the teachers felt kids wouldn't understand the book... more
What? A dull tome of epistemology doesn't inspire? Pshah! (nm) Baruch, Sun Mar 11 20:48 A sad truth you speak ... Baruch, Sun Mar 11 14:54they have the ability to read, but don't, not even their own scriptures. Was too busy watching Waisting Time With The Stars on TV. Shalom
An interesting fact Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 15:54Most native English speakers find it easier to read a passage from the King James Bible, with comprehension, than to read a passage from Shakespeare with comprehension -- even though the two texts... more
Wow, that's fascinating. (nm) Mirage, Mon Mar 12 16:53
Some theorize that... Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 17:29... it is because, for so long, the Bible was the only book most people had access to, and read, that the cadence and turns of phrase have become the subtext of all English with any kind of... more
Re: Some theorize that... Mirage, Mon Mar 12 17:54That actually rings true to me on a gut level. There are also studies that show that music heard in the womb is strongly preferred later in life, so if the mother is a churchgoer, perhaps the words... more
My youngest son... Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 17:59...is autistic, and very sensitive to sound. He has an almost unerring sense of good music, reacting well and strongly to classics of all genres, and wanting anything he doesn't like "off!" as soon... more
Re: Austism MN_Morgan, Tue Mar 13 12:47That's not uncommon. The boy I watch after school loves certain genres of music, and some things just overstimulate him to the point where he will get aggressive.
War dances, like the Irish jig, are meant to do that ;-) (nm) Baruch, Tue Mar 13 12:57 I wonder if this is related Mirage, Mon Mar 12 18:06My mother had perfect pitch, but certain harmonies were literally painful to her. For example several songs by The Who hurt her ears. We tried to figure out a pattern so as not to cause her... more
Autistic children often experience... Frashavan, Mon Mar 12 18:11sense stimuli as pain, if it beyond their threshold level, or there is some other trigger. It could be something like that for your mom; a type of synesthesia
Oooh might be Mirage, Mon Mar 12 18:57My mother never indicated she had the sort of sensations I do but it might not have occurred to her if she had it that she was unusual. I have actually been diagnosed with synesthesia, but I thought... more
Re: Synesthesia MN_Morgan, Tue Mar 13 12:45I wonder if you can get paired sensations that are atypical from visual data too? Like with extremely abstract art. I've seen some designs that literally make my eyes and teeth itch and I wonder if... more
Re: Synesthesia Mirage, Wed Mar 14 03:45Synesthesia perceptions aren't necessarily consistent between different people, but for the same person it tends to be consistent. For example, a lot of people with synesthesia perceive letters to be ... more Certain light patterns are know to trigger epilepsy ... BTW (nm) Baruch, Tue Mar 13 12:55
I was referring more to still images MN_Morgan, Tue Mar 13 15:45It's only certain ones, and I can't quite pinpoint what about them actually triggers it.
Not just color of light, but polarization ... Baruch, Tue Mar 13 18:14I used to have a pair of sunglasses, that whenever my ex put them on, immediately gave her pain, but did nothing bad for me. The light was different in effect, for two different people ... just the... more I hope neither of you put stock ... Baruch, Tue Mar 13 03:10in the idea, that these experiences of synesthesia etal, are abnormal, except in a statistical sense. In my pure empirical approach, there isn't a single reality, so if you see colors in addition to... more
It's atypical, but not abnormal. Mirage, Tue Mar 13 06:08I forget most of the time that I have it. I've perceived things that way ever since I can remember. A friend of mine told me once it comes out in my poetry. It's not that rare, apparently. Does he have dyslexia too? Mirage, Mon Mar 12 19:08I do and have wondered if they are linked or commonly found together.
It's a bit hard to say, yet Frashavan, Tue Mar 13 09:41he's still learning to read and write, so some letter reversals are normal. I have dyslexia/dysgraphia, but only have rare moments of synesthesia. (not that he and eye are genetically related, anyway) Religion can be an inducement to read, though. Mirage, Sun Mar 11 16:48The people who can quote chapter and verse have generally read the Bible many times. In the days when laypeople were discouraged from reading or translating the Bible, vernacular Bibles emerged... more
True enough ... Baruch, Sun Mar 11 20:43that was once the great purpose of Sunday School. It was for adults, not children ... to teach the illiterate to read. Of course the Quran and Torah have served that same purpose for centuries. The... more
More on Reading MN_Morgan, Mon Mar 12 13:52I read in National Geographic that some Scottish towns that solely spoke Gaelic would learn English from the Bible and from the church. This is the problem I have with crooked clergy. They take... more
This is a universal problem ... Baruch, Mon Mar 12 18:38800 years ago, the Japanese nobleman, Dogen, who was already a Buddhist monk, went to China to find someone who could teach him "real" Buddhism. He didn't think he could find it in his own country,... more Re: More on Reading Mirage, Mon Mar 12 14:31Abraham Lincoln also taught himself to read from a Bible. I can understand that depending on the beliefs of the people at a church, there might be candidates those people tend to prefer, but yeah, I... more
More so ... Baruch, Mon Mar 12 21:45G-d, charity and spiritual work, are what life is supposed to be about. This is why materialism and egotism will always fail, because they are what death is about. Shalom post-modern = 2nd stone age Baruch, Sun Mar 11 09:31Post-literate is a good description of the US. Just look at the drop in books (hard, soft, electronic). The drop in readership of newspapers ... isn't as indicative, since I think they were always... more
Re: post-modern = 2nd stone age Mirage, Sun Mar 11 09:36You never know where great art will come from.
In history it has come from institutional religion ... Baruch, Sun Mar 11 21:00sponsoring it, and royal courts sponsoring it ... because it takes a great expense to make it, or to keep a lot of artistic talent hanging around. Our secular mechantilist plebian age is anti-art.... more
Re: In history it has come from institutional religion ... Mirage, Sun Mar 11 21:47Don't forget the incredible beautiful things which have been created by outsider artists, such as the Watts Tower. If I had a choice between visiting either the Sistine Chapel or Don Justo's... more
Saw a program on him once ... Baruch, Sun Mar 11 22:04he is certainly inspired, as was the Watts Tower guy. But you know what, in conventional terms, I am talking about. They are both unconventional architects. Self-taught. Your reaction to art is very... more Deliberate, not a blunder ... Baruch, Sun Mar 11 08:32after being in Afghanistan, for over 10 years now, they didn't do this, without knowing what they were doing, from the White House on down. All an act, designed to pressure Karzai ... in the midst of ... more
It may not be, but it's stupid Frashavan, Sun Mar 11 18:55Was today's massacre of sleeping women and children an order or just someone running amuk? I would like soldiers to disobey such orders, or at least, creatively implement them. It won't happen,... more
Re: It may not be, but it's stupid Mirage, Sun Mar 11 22:01US soldiers are required and expected to refuse and report improper orders. Doing so takes a great deal of courage, but some have done it, and paid whatever price resulted. I think this is someone... more
He had already toured in Iraq ... Baruch, Sun Mar 11 22:08and this was his first time in Afghanistan. If we were doing the Vietnam war style rotation, he would never had had to go to Afghanistan. Our professional forces are overtasked, to the destruction of ... more
Re: He had already toured in Iraq ... Mirage, Mon Mar 12 01:20Most of these guys are pretty young, and I don't think they get there's enough attention paid to morale. Seems like every time someone cracks the world paints the rest of our guys with the same... more I am thankful for the assistance of the ... Baruch, Sun Mar 11 20:56Canadian military. But it seems mostly our interaction has been friendly fire that killed Canadians, early in the Afghan war ;-( Saw a Youtube this past week, with ground troops (British?) having a... more Well mybe not sai ram, Sun Mar 11 10:00while maybe we have been there for 10 years the soldiers haven't been.....don't know their background but some might have been there only months andmore than likely late teens......and having been... more
