MirageRe: Who, what is God?Tue Apr 3, 2012 10:36220.127.116.11I will note something. Your God concept is very Western and somewhat Abrahamic. There are many concepts of God including myriad creator gods. Some of the others might seem less evil to you. Not all of them are portrayed as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
I have no answers, but I keep asking questions and hoping to find some. My concept of God is that God both subsumes and exceeds the Creation. I'm pretty much a deist and do not claim to comprehend God, but I don't tend to think of God as being safely outside of the physical world. If I am right, God probably suffers much more than we as single individuals do. This is one reason I think God may not have the option of creating a pain free world or there is some reason doing it this way was vastly preferable.
Humans are omnivores, and it is possible but difficult for most humans to be vegan or vegetarian and be healthy. It is not possible for some carnivores and some few humans like myself, however, so your point stands.
It is difficult to imagine how there could be reproduction necessary for evolution without the necessity of death as well unless God also created a world of infinite size and resources. You seem to assume plants do not need to be violent or kill anything but that is not the case. Even plants can and do crowd each other out and die because of competition for resources. Plants do sometimes have to kill. Most plants do not depend entirely on photosynthesis but also need materials from the soil, and moisture. It is unlikely they are aware of it, however. Some plants are parasitic on other plants. Some also possess protections which can kill insects, fungi, micro-organisms, and even poison animals like us. Let us not forget carnivorous plants like the Flytrap. If we were plantae we might still have to kill. Plants do possess sensory mechanisms and some of them respond visibly to damage. We think they do not have a rudimentary pain sense, but I don't think anyone can know that for sure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_%28physiology%29
Pediatric dentists used to believe children could not feel tooth extraction pain. As one of the children who had several teeth drilled and extracted without anaesthesia, I can state they were wrong. Baby teeth do not have nerves, but the jaw and gums certainly do!
I think the most traditional answer is that God may have different perceptions than we do and may not see death as a bad or tragic thing because of knowledge we lack. I think you have probably rejected that one.
I am sure there are plenty of explanations people have considered as to why God might not be immoral, or even amoral. I am not very wise and I am somewhat pessimistic/depressive but some of this violent killing thing is my fault. I eat meat by choice, and for selfish reasons. When I explained to a PETA member that several dieticians including a vegetarian one said it is impossible for me as a type 1 diabetic to maintain health on a vegan or vegetarian diet because of my specific height and weight and the carbohydrates I would need to consume to complete proteins, the PETA member told me it was my obligation to die rather than be a murderer. Perhaps he is right. May he never have to make that choice. I guess I chose evil. If I am evil according to your criteria, that's a legitimate view, and you should probably disregard any post from me.
What it gets down to is I hesitate to judge anyone or anything if I don't know the following:
1. What actions they did specifically.
3. Whether it was necessary or the best available action.
4. The goal and outcome of their actions.
5. Any mitigating circumstances.
I don't know any of those.
- Who, what is God? clarym29, Tue Apr 3 09:05I have more definite "beliefs" about the subject of God than in the past. I took a hard look at nature and saw this: Life depends upon some form of energy, and I see three main sources. One is the... more
- I am not so sure plants don't feel ... Baruch, Sat Apr 7 07:43I don't think they think, but feelings are happening at a lower level than neural. At least if you think of reflex as a kind of awareness. And yes, humans kill to live, it is a protein requirement,... more
- Speaking of uncooked raw meat sai ram, Sat Apr 7 12:13"It is probably not a coincidence, that he was a Celt. I appreciate all my ancestors, including the ape men who ate rotten uncooked meat.".......Once I went under hypnotism for past life regression.... more
- I agree, I also avoid leadership positions ... Baruch, Sat Apr 7 14:29the trick with rotten meat ... in later times ... is proper aging under proper conditions. That is the original idea of smoked meat ... it keeps the flies away. The Italians make prosciutto, which is ... more
- When I was in Spain sai ram, Sat Apr 7 16:30the hotel I was at had a buffett breakfast.....the bacon looked like they didn't even try and cook it. Same thing in Italy.....I was a meat eater then...but wouldn't touch the stuff.....sai ram
- playing with fire clarym29, Sat Apr 7 09:56I like your explanation of the role of fire in early religious thought and belief. I guess that is why most, if not all, the earliest religions had women leaders and gods. After all, while women were ... more
- Here is some eternal fire ... Baruch, Sat Apr 7 17:08Part way into this, there is a tribe of untouchables, who are keeping the same funeral pyre, they say, for the last 3500 years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocWG1bayuCY Here is a sacred Zoroastrian ... more
- PS - ironically this quarter's issue of Parabola, is on Fire (nm Baruch, Sat Apr 7 21:44
- So what? sai ram, Sat Apr 7 12:15so what is the downside of pissing off the weaker sex?.....wait, I know......nevermind.....sai ram
- Yeah--early learned lesson! (nm) clarym29, Sat Apr 7 12:41
- Well this is an old old battle ... Baruch, Sat Apr 7 10:39originally men and women had separate religious spheres. The women weren't necessarily nice ... they were into human sacrifice for agriculture, usually killing the "Green Man". Eventually both sexes... more
- Actually sai ram, Sat Apr 7 12:30I like the Hindu style of thought on keeping the sexes on one side and the males on the others in the temples and during bhajans and prayer. Of course the thought is that you need as little... more
- Orthodox Jews at the Western Wall ... Baruch, Sat Apr 7 14:26in synagogue, and in early Roman/Byzantine Christianity did the same thing. This was the norm. Shalom
- I think this is realted, in a way, to what you posted about Frashavan, Wed Apr 4 18:28An Epistle Containing the Strange Medical Experience of Karshish, the Arab Physician By Robert Browning Karshish, the picker-up of learning's crumbs, The not-incurious in God's handiwork (This... more
- Browning clarym29, Wed Apr 4 18:51Not my favorite. But parts of this one are good; especially the ending:And thou must love me who have died for thee!" The madman saith He said so: it is strange. Yes, strange it is. That part about... more
- I have always found it powerful Frashavan, Wed Apr 4 19:00I do think the Christian ideas about god to be strange...they always were, for me. But, there are some things I think (at least) I can see the appeal in. People forget that modern Christianity is... more
- Frashavan, a question..... clarym29, Sun Apr 8 13:35Could you explain the Zoroastrian idea of the afterlife, or point me to a good web site that does?
- Sure clarym29, Wed Apr 4 19:25I do think that there are good and wonderful ideas found in any and all religions. It's just when the hierarchy get through with those ideas they are not so wonderful. The greatest appeal to me about ... more
- Natural forces given an identity1 (nm) Kasey, Wed Apr 4 14:48
- In your case they gave you the identity of Kasey ... Baruch, Sat Apr 7 21:35please explain how impersonal forces, can produce an identity for part of themselves? Shalom
- Quite right! (nm) clarym29, Wed Apr 4 18:52
- You remind me of sai ram, Tue Apr 3 23:14You remind me of a guy on the board (that neither of us can remember its name)......a guy that died of cancer (and didn't let any of us know he was dying) and posted right up to almost the time of... more
- He was the guy always talking about love ;-) Baruch, Sat Apr 7 21:37I am sure his love has survived him. Shalom
- I do clarym29, Wed Apr 4 00:50remember such a guy--but I do not remember his name. I, too, was quite saddened by his death. Now I will be bugged until I remember his name--thanks! :)
- Re: Who, what is God? Mirage, Tue Apr 3 10:36
- Monotheism is at best problematic ... Baruch, Sat Apr 7 21:41and at worst incoherent. Those PETA people sound as puritanical as the Taliban ;-( Shalom
- Australia's Roman Catholic archbishop Pell .... Kasey, Sun Apr 8 10:01in his Easter message has called on all Christians,Jews,Muslims and Sikhs to defend monotheism and compares this need to the 9th century BC situation of the worship of Baal and the crisis then for... more
- The Catholics are always seeing Commies under their bed ... Baruch, Sun Apr 8 10:31that is why they invented modern Facism to counter modern Communism. Got the URL to that TV program? I enjoyed the other one you sent. Shalom
- god clarym29, Tue Apr 3 13:18I have no answers, but I keep asking questions and hoping to find some. --I don't know that answers exist. But I too, like to ask. Humans are omnivores, and it is possible but difficult for most... more
- Crop rotation Mirage, Tue Apr 3 23:22If we were plants, we would still need minerals, and we would probably not be very mobile, like most plants. I am assuming we would also reproduce in one of the standard plant methods rather than... more
- Easier yet clarym29, Wed Apr 4 00:52would be for God to simply make humans able to live from the energy of the Sun. Rechargeable solar biological batteries. As easy as a snap of the fingers........
- Snapping of fingers. Mirage, Wed Apr 4 03:50If God did create the world, He doesn't seem to have created fully developed complex upright walking hominid creatures with a snap of the fingers. Whether one believes in God or not, it's fairly... more
- Questions, questions clarym29, Wed Apr 4 10:01Shoot, I have questions to spare. i can make them up in any topic. The only way that makes any sense to me in this Creator business is as a first cause. I would see the First Cause taking effect at... more
- What a friend of mine said Mirage, Wed Apr 4 10:23We were talking about First Cause and he said "Maybe in the beginning, God exploded." He was a Many Worlds guy.
- Inflationary theory clarym29, Wed Apr 4 11:59One universe giving birth to others is called the Inflationary Theory by astrophysicists. I think Kaku was the guy I first heard it from. I makes sense to me. Don't know why it is called a theory... more
- Where do we get the minerals? (nm) Mirage, Wed Apr 4 00:57
- Veggans sai ram, Tue Apr 3 14:45"It is a fact that plants also have life like animals. But animals are endowed with mind, and nervous systems too while the plants do not possess the same. The animals cry and weep when they are... more
- IBVA Mirage, Tue Apr 3 21:26A long time ago there was a small company that made a system called IBVA. It was a biofeedback system for the old Macintosh, and you could buy some various expansions for it, headsets, etc. It came... more
- Hmmm clarym29, Tue Apr 3 17:23Not sure I agree with Mr. Baba on this one. I understand what he is saying. But the old saying that you are what you eat doesn't quite mean you inherit the spirit of what you eat. I'm not sure that... more
- lets say sai ram, Tue Apr 3 19:56lets say not an animals spirit but rather its essence or behaviour patterns. We know the mind can affect the body...in many ways. I put a gun to your head and your knees start to wobble...sweats... more
- What PETA should do Mirage, Tue Apr 3 22:30If they managed to get a law passed that all meat animals must be named with standard human names and those names must be on packages of meat, there'd be a whole lot of vegetarians within a week.... more
- Not only that but sai ram, Tue Apr 3 23:17a picture when they were born...all excited about life......I don't remember where I was but the PETA girls were taking a shower downtown as people were walking by....sai ram..
- yeah they are selling naked blondes Mirage, Tue Apr 3 23:49If they had naked men too then at least it would be equal immodesty, but I don't think their claim that just quitting meat will make you sexier is accurate. In fact, since they don't go to much... more
- Vegan??? clarym29, Tue Apr 3 21:45I assume you have become a vegetarian? I am leaning toward that myself, but I have not arrived yet. My reasons are not moral, but that my body does better when I stick to vegs and cheese and... more
- Some caveats Mirage, Tue Apr 3 21:59It is extremely important for neurological health that you get the B vitamins which normally come from red meat. That is one of the biggest mistakes people make. I had to write a thesis on this in... more
- Vit. B clarym29, Tue Apr 3 22:25you are correct. I take vit. B shots daily. I also take vit D and over 4000 units of vit E. My doctor is aware of the newest homeopathy studies and uses the ones that apply to me. I am close to... more
- I picked it up sai ram, Tue Apr 3 21:57I picked it up in India 2004....however, not a true one. I still eat some occasional seafood. I wouldn't eat fish even, but my wife has a habit of dragging me out to eat all the time and its hard in... more
- Re: I picked it up Mirage, Tue Apr 3 22:11Mexican and Italian restaurants tend to be pretty good about substituting something else for meat if you ask. I used to ask for mushrooms instead of meat a lot and because mushrooms are cheaper, the... more
- Let's hope he is wrong Mirage, Tue Apr 3 21:30Cannibals mostly believe/believed that eating the brains and flesh of their enemies would infuse them with the strength, intelligence, bravery, and other strengths of that enemy. His argument could... more