FrashavanThe immorality and ineffectiveness of tortureFri Apr 27, 2012 04:35126.96.36.199Since 9-11 we have had a few discussions here about the use of torture. Those of you who have been here for awhile know that I have always said that torture was a completely immoral and unethical thing -- an unjustified abuse of the power that states claim over human beings.
Moreover, I have, consistently and, I regret having to say, in the face of some vocal opposition on this board, not only from the kook fringe, that torture is useless. The information it produces is unreliable, exaggerated and just plain false in the vast majority if cases. One doesn't need great understanding of human psychology to understand that, under duress, the only thing the person being tortured wants is for the torture to end....if a person has few/no secrets to reveal, they will say whatever they think the torturer wants to hear.
That is what every even semi-accurate or complete record of the use of torture shows time and time again. There are a handful of cases where torture "worked" against hundreds of thousands of cases where it did not...and there is no proof that the information could not have been found other ways. Sometimes there is proof that it was discovered without extraordinary measures being necessary at all.
So, I read this with interest:
I driect attention, in particular to the end: "Critics also say that still-classified records are likely to demonstrate that harsh interrogation techniques produced far more information that proved false than true.
Some U.S. counter-terrorism officials have acknowledged that in the years after the September 11 attacks, U.S. agencies were overwhelmed with bogus tips about possible plots and attacks."
A good deal of those "bogus tips" likely resulted from the torture used by the CIA.
- The the polygrph instead in disguise? (nm) Kasey, Fri Apr 27 22:01
- In my experience clarym29, Fri Apr 27 09:51I spent 3 year in the active Army, and 9 years in the active reserve, as a Special Agent im Military Intelligence. I was a counter-espionage agent, but I did have some exposure to the techniques of... more
- Civilians only believe what they see on TV (nm) Baruch, Fri Apr 27 17:32
- So it was useless sai ram, Fri Apr 27 13:20what plan did they have that was much better?...one that is tried and true?.....I would believe its not 100% or even 50%...but useless...naw. Its been used all over the world by countries since there ... more
- If we can torture all the kids in foreign nations ... Baruch, Fri Apr 27 17:37from a young age, maybe they will learn to avoid Americans. You have to be proactive. After the Twin Towers fall is too late. Colonization, extermination, expropriation, enslavement ... our ancestors ... more
- Of course there clarym29, Fri Apr 27 13:58could be benefits to anything. So, what? Yes, torture has been used and will continue to be used forever. So what? No, torture was not useless according to my teachers and those that worked in the... more
- Authorities don't want your respect ... Baruch, Fri Apr 27 17:43they want your fear, and to use that fear as a tool, to use the violence they have induced, to useful 1% purposes. "verified to be of real value" ... that is something no Republican or Democrat... more
- Re: Authorities don't want your respect ... clarym29, Fri Apr 27 18:01"Authorities don't want your respect ...they want your fear, and to use that fear as a tool, to use the violence they have induced, to useful 1% purposes." As they say in the old country--No Shit,... more
- fear is sai ram, Fri Apr 27 20:44fear is a big if not the biggest motivator of mankind......is it counterproductive?....I don't know.....most working people have some level of fear about being late for work. This fear just might... more
- The official list of phobias ... Baruch, Sat Apr 28 00:56include fear of dirt and fear of death. Now phobia is an irrational or extreme example of a rational fear. I kind of think that the first is crazy but the second is reasonable ;-) Shalom
- Ever hear of clarym29, Fri Apr 27 22:29the word contraryian? You wear it well. :)
- Counterproductive? Baruch, Fri Apr 27 18:34if you are using fear on your loved ones, then they should "off" you the next time you sleep. See in Newspeak, Love is Hate ... and we express a lot of that lately. The problem has been our... more
- Great advice clarym29, Fri Apr 27 18:53if you are using fear on your loved ones, then they should "off" you the next time you sleep. -----Just got a verdict, in the town I live in, on a woman who stabbed her husband to death while he... more
- A woman like that is what Conservatives fear most! (nm) Baruch, Fri Apr 27 19:05
- the So what sai ram, Fri Apr 27 15:47"But it was not dependable or should I say it had the lowest dependable rating one could give in this area.".....torture is a tool...and like any tools it might not be what you need for the job. But... more
- I agree....except sai ram, Fri Apr 27 09:22"I have always said that torture was a completely immoral and unethical thing"....I agree.....however, torture has been around for how long?...how long has the armies in the world used torture to... more
- True enough ... Baruch, Fri Apr 27 05:50unfortunately the truth isn't valued as much as it should be, nor is kindness. Falsehood and cruelty are ascendant. Let the seculars and their progress of humanity fantasies deal with that. Shalom