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Baruch

Notions of Hell ...

Tue May 15, 2012 18:09

68.91.130.168

as an after-life place of punishment, originated in New Kingdom Egypt, including a classic Last Judgement. Prior to that time in Egypt, in the Old Kingdom for instance, only the Pharaoh really got an afterlife ... and in that afterlife, strangely, spent his time killing and eating the other gods and goddesses. Pretty much time was linear, and in the Pyramid Texts of Pharaoh Unas (2300 BCE) there is considerable detail. These ideas developed from only the Pharaoh and selected servants having an afterlife, to a universal afterlife with a bifurcated ethical outcome. Theology was reflected in the Middle Kingdom in the Coffin Texts, and in the New Kingdom in the Book of the Dead.

On the other hand, in ancient Sumeria, and subsequent Semitic kingdoms, time was also linear, but the outcome was pretty universal from the beginning (Gilgamesh epic also first developing around 2300 BCE), and dreary ... an underground kingdom of the dead, very dreary. The Greeks and later the Romans took up this idea we now call Hades, after the god responsible for that kingdom of the dead. The Greek god of chthonic wealth was Plutos, from which the Roman name of Hades was developed, Pluto ... and thus the former planet as well.

In ancient India, time was always cyclic, and their views underwent considerable revision also. By the 1st century CE, the most sophisticated system was Buddhist, with many different Heavens and Hells. But all of these were seen as temporary as was Earthly life. As you have stated, the Zoroastrian view is that Hell is temporary ... but with a linear time, this morphs into Christian purgatory. It is my view that much of this Buddhist cosmology was added to the already developing N Eastern views, Jewish and pagan, to produce the Christian Orthodox view.

In Medieval Europe however, where influenced by Nordic pagan culture, Hades was replaced with Hell, the name of the Norse goddess who was responsible for those dead who didn't go to Valhalla. What was ironic about the name change, is that originally Hell was a place of extreme cold, not extreme heat.

Shalom

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• Is hell anything like -- do unto others and love the sinner? — ipirate2, Tue May 15 13:33
  Is hell anything like -- do unto others and love the sinner? Some more enlightened Christians are trying to mature Christianity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc The Christian invention of... more
• • I agree ... — Baruch, Tue May 15 18:19
    on the other hand, the original, bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara, would say that with karma you get what you deserve, even though both punishment and reward are delusions ;-) The Jewish version seems too ... more
  • • Re: I agree ... — ipirate2, Tue May 15 21:42
      Influenced perhapd but they never bought into such a repugnant concept from what I know of most of them. Regards DL
    • • It's still only a concept of the mind...not a fact! (nm) — Kasey, Wed May 16 18:53
      • • Re: It's still only a concept of the mind...not a fact! — ipirate2, Thu May 17 16:49
          No argument. Regards DL
        • Buddha would say that the only fact ... — Baruch, Wed May 16 22:13
          is a Potentiality aka Emptiness, from which all Actuality temporarily arises and falls. The Actuality that you consider real, Buddha would say is to contingent to be called real at all. And that the... more
        • • What "Is" is.... — Frashavan, Thu May 17 07:46
            Why is there anything? Why is there "is"? The just-so story that is modern physics thinks that they have the answers; but how can you have an answer if you can't explain it in simple terms to a child ... more
          • • Even 6yr olds understand "make-believe"! (nm) — Kasey, Thu May 17 20:35
            • • Yes, wise beyond their years ... — Baruch, Thu May 17 21:21
                they discard the myths of childhood, only to adopt the myths of adulthood, like work, family and citizenship. Shalom
              • • Sometimes I wonder if you really do.... — Kasey, Fri May 18 03:05
                  live in the real practical world? Regards, Kasey
                • • I don't live in your subculture ... — Baruch, Fri May 18 06:39
                    It took a great deal of effort to escape the myths of adulthood, having spent 30 years learning them. But I haven't believed in Santa Claus for a long time, ever since I caught my father bringing in... more
                  • • For many, life is but a dream! (nm) — Kasey, Sat May 19 05:29
                    • • For all ... — Baruch, Sat May 19 15:54
                        have pleasant dreams, and may any nightmares go away. Shalom
                    • Having seen the back of the funhouse... — Frashavan, Fri May 18 07:22
                      ...some people think they understand the illusions. But they don't; knowing the people in the "It's a Small World" ride are animatronics doesn't free you from the illusion at all. As I have often... more
                    • • When the Buddha became enlightened ... — Baruch, Fri May 18 07:43
                        he had defeated the god of illusion. But reality didn't cease to exist, as Hindus believe when Brahman wakes up from his dream. The Buddha went from being in the Matrix, and not knowing it, to being... more
                      • • I know...I know — Frashavan, Fri May 18 07:54
                          I have explained all that, more times than I can count. But youth are impatient of Wisdom. What's worse is that they totally accept the mathematical model: the answer must be defined, and must be... more
                        • • Objectivity is associated with singularity ... — Baruch, Fri May 18 13:02
                            but then both objectivity and singularity are their own myths. Yes, perhaps many people are Gnostics ... they think if they just know the secret magic formula, then they too can make McDonald's... more
            • A curve fitted thru data ... — Baruch, Thu May 17 18:00
              doesn't actually explain the data ... because more than one curve can be fitted, each with its own rationale. The most basic cosmological questions can't be answered by the scientific method, since... more
      • It was pretty universal 2000 years ago ... — Baruch, Wed May 16 05:54
        the Talmud and Aggada record it from Roman times. But most Jews have abandoned the Talmud and Aggada, and Torah for that matter, over the last 200 years. That is part of the incomprehension Jews have ... more
      • • Re: It was pretty universal 2000 years ago ... — ipirate2, Wed May 16 10:13
          Yes. Christians and Muslims turned to idol worship while the Jews seek a better God than their God of war. God here I translate as a better set of rules and laws to live by. Regards DL
        • • Well the Jewish god of war was a failure (nm) — Baruch, Wed May 16 17:18
          • • Tell that to Moshe Dayan. (nm) — Frashavan, Wed May 16 18:22
            • • If the Jews had US backing 2000 years ago ... — Baruch, Wed May 16 18:30
                the Romans would have had a harder time of it. Notice "Moshe" = "Moses" and "Dayan" = "Judge". Egyptians should have realized trouble was coming their way. Shalom
              • • Getting trapped in mythology — Frashavan, Wed May 16 18:46
                  I suspect that the Zealots wanted to reenact the Myth of the Maccabees. Had they coordinated their uprisings with Arsacid invasions, they would have achieved more success.
                • • Yes, the Persian faction among the Jews ... — Baruch, Wed May 16 22:09
                    really missed it ... though such an invasion did occur at the time that the young Prince Herod (of Bethlehem infamy) was forced from Palestine into temporary Roman exile, and his brother was killed... more
                  • • I suspect that the Roman reaction to 70 CE and Bar Kochba .. — Frashavan, Thu May 17 17:31
                      ...had more than a little to do with fearing a Persian ploy, if not outright involvement. Thus the banning of the Jews from Judea had more to do with disrupting a Parthian Fifth Column than may be... more
                    • • "I Claudius" recreated them (nm) — Baruch, Thu May 17 17:47
                      • • And was an enjoyable fiction — Frashavan, Fri May 18 08:01
                          But the historian in me craves more. Just as I wish we had more ....
                        • • The best we have are Caesar's writings ... — Baruch, Fri May 18 13:05
                            and Marcus Aurelius. Certainly Caesar's writings are propaganda, as are the independent Roman historians like Tacitus. Though I think the earlier Greek historian, Polybius, is somewhat reliable. Not... more
  • The Christian "hell" is conflated from too many sources (nm) — Frashavan, Tue May 15 17:46
  • • Re: The Christian "hell" is conflated from too many sources — ipirate2, Tue May 15 21:44
      Yet the majority believe in Satan and hell. That is what happens from taking myths literally. Regards DL
    • • At least in the US ... — Baruch, Wed May 16 05:56
        only the Fundies believe in Satan and Hell ... most have defected to "feel good" religion ... a bourgoise Manicheism. Shalom
      • • Benedict wants RCs to believe in Satan — Frashavan, Wed May 16 13:39
          But I can't say he is making much impact in North America; and doubt he is making much progress in Europe, either. Of course, the RC hierarchy seems pretty much convinced the future of the Roman... more
        • • Yes, Christians are more conservative ... — Baruch, Wed May 16 17:23
            in Third World countries, in all denominations. But then I think just as that creates centrifugal forces for the Anglicans, so also for the Catholics. This is what led to the split between Shia and... more
          • • Historians are, slowly, moving toward a more nuanced view — Frashavan, Wed May 16 18:20
              I think this is, overall, a good thing. The Hitler as monster stuff that has dominated since the end of the war didn't help anyone who wanted to prevent fascism, or demagoguery, because it made... more
            • • BUT ON RACIAL OR RELIGIOUS TOPICS! (nm) — Kasey, Thu May 17 03:23
              • • But race and religion are mere fantasies ;-) (nm) — Baruch, Thu May 17 05:47
                • • The deeper we probe into plaeo-genetics.... — Frashavan, Thu May 17 07:48
                    ...the more true that appears to be. But West Coast Rappers will still hate East Coast Rappers, nonetheless.
              • Correct, but deliberate propaganda ... — Baruch, Wed May 16 18:42
                the intent was to immediately turn around W Germany, as a bulwark against Stalin and as the center-piece of NATO. So the non-Nazi Germans were immediately counted as "good" Germans ... and basically... more
              • • Don't forget that without the "bomb" Stalin would have.... — Kasey, Sat May 19 05:36
                  been well tempted to continue the advance westward by any means at his disposal, that's another factor in re-arming the Germans and rebuilding their shattered economy and self-image. Regards, Kasey
                • • True, but as duplicity ... — Baruch, Sat May 19 15:56
                    all the tactical nukes would have fell on German, from both sides. Shalom
                • The extremists on FOX tap into a deep well — Frashavan, Wed May 16 18:53
                  The fact is nearly everyone has sympathy for the arguments "Taxes are too high!", "The government is too intrusive!" "Many government regulations are insane!"... The more they harp on those few... more
                • • Telling people what they want to hear ... — Baruch, Wed May 16 22:17
                    is the very meat of politics, red meat to carnivores. Also marketing to consumers who are equally bloody in tooth and claw. Americans are natural rebels if not anarchists. This is what plagued... more
                  • • Largely a myth — Frashavan, Thu May 17 07:41
                      The American Revolution was really exchanging a distant landed gentry for a local one. The "rugged individualist" and "rebel" myths are just that, myths. Most people end up cheering for The Earps and ... more
                    • • Molly Maguires? — Baruch, Thu May 17 17:56
                        It helps to have some New England or NYC class, like the Cornelius Vanderbuilt vs Filibusters in Latin America. Or Tombstone mining interests agains the local cattle rustlers and horse thieves. Hence ... more
        • Re: At least in the US ... — ipirate2, Wed May 16 10:10
          Yes. You will improve my vocabulary if my memory still works. Regards DL
    • Notions of Hell ... — Baruch, Tue May 15 18:09
    • • Re: Notions of Hell ... — ipirate2, Tue May 15 21:48
        Yes. It took many years to develop but only the Christians embraced it with open arms. Their hate seems quite ingrained. Regards DL
      • • Roman Mafia ... hate is necessary of the Other (nm) — Baruch, Wed May 16 05:56
        • • Re: Roman Mafia ... hate is necessary of the Other — ipirate2, Wed May 16 10:08
            Yes. They forgot that yin and yang are compliments to each other and not in opposition. Regards DL
          • • Except in the early case ... — Baruch, Wed May 16 17:19
              of the Rape of the Sabine Women ... but the complimentarity was forced. Shalom
      • Well, dang. It froze over already. ;D (nm) — MN_Morgan, Tue May 15 18:50
  • Indeed — MN_Morgan, Tue May 15 14:08
    Wishing upon others, you bring it upon yourself, though you do not recognize it because you think it has another form than what you expected. Expecting that it is a real place, it is created for you... more
  • • A horticultural motif ... — Baruch, Tue May 15 18:13
      plant brambles, and brambles will grow up, to the harm of all. Plant grapes and grapes will grow up, to the benefit of all. However I don't see it being tit for tat ... as karma requires. Shalom
    • • Never tit for tat — MN_Morgan, Tue May 15 18:48
        Just a product of itself, hence why it is so in-discriminant as to who it affects.

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