BaruchFor a monotheist, obviously both ...Thu Jul 5, 2012 18:18184.108.40.206I mean monotheist, in the sense of metaphysical monism ... not the innumerate versions that have more than one god (devil etc). I can agree that G-d knows both sides of creation, being the Creator ... dualism of good and bad (or evil) is the natural progress of creation, which proceeds to complete pluralism. Even in just the human experience, most would agree that there are many human individuals. But that is a phenomenal view, not a neumenal view. In the neumenal view, or unitary view ... there is only one human nature, that is as Nietzsche said, beyond good and evil.
Of course theologians try to count the angels on the head of a pin when encountering scriptural verses that completely contradict their cherished dogma. The two verses you quote are particular bugbears.
In Kabbalah, there are ten aspects to the divine personality, which is replicated in each individual human. "the man" in question would be Adam Kadmon aka Logos, the archetypical human, who has those same ten aspects though in lesser degree. And each individual human, as imperfect Platonic copies of Adam Kadmon, have those same ten aspects also. These aspects are called "sephirot". From the sephirot and their linkages, Kabbalists have intuited the "tree of life" as well as "Adam Kadmon" as well as the letters of the Hebrew alef-bet.
As I have posted before, the second quote, from the NT, rather than the OT, as was the case with the first quote, is mistranslated. The notion of perfection to a Greek Gentile, isn't what is written in the original language, Judeo-Greek. The actual word there means "complete". So it can be better translated as "Be ye therefore complete, even as your Father in heaven is complete". This is clearly a gnostic slogan, which has been turned on its head to satisfy the preexisting requirements of Christian theology. It makes sense as a direction to a gnostic, but not to a Christian, because while a gnostic can aspire to be complete. a Christian can't aspire to be perfect, by definition, because only Jesus is perfect. I would note at this point, Christian theology has to go thru pretzels to justify why the obvious failure of Jesus' mission, is an ultimate example of perfection.
So G-d's warning the the Garden, could be seen as common sense, if one becomes gnostically complete by eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (it isn't an apple), then one will by definition experience all the good and bad that comes with the complete human experience. Yes, Adam and Eve did the right thing, but not necessarily in the right way. Since the original context had different levels of meaning, here was the gnostic (the snake isn't a snake, it is a serpent, which is like a dragon (hence the allegory popular in the Middle Ages of St George rescuing the virgin maiden from a dragon, that reverses the story) ... which in India is called a "naga", which is a serpent deity that protects snakes and other reptiles that inspired the imaginary dragon all across Asia.
And the Naga king, was a very powerful deity, that kept secret knowledge that a gnostic quester could seek at his own peril (see Hero With A Thousand Faces). In prehistory this will have developed out of Indo-European proto-religion, that was then overlaid on the story of the snake in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Bedouin still oppress any snake they find in an oasis, by sewing its mouth shut, so that it cannot whisper lies. One of the functions of Iblis (the Devil) in Islam, is to be a whisperer of lies.
Developing a moral sense, inevitably develops a sense of guilt or shame, because once we have one, we are no longer animals, but people, who understand that there are positive and negative consequences to our every action and inaction. Unlike the Mobius strip, morality is like a coin, it has to have two sides, not one. But I don't think this diminishes the tragedy that appears to be an unavoidable aspect of time itself, and which the Buddha developed a solution.
- Is becoming like God good or evil? ipirate2, Thu Jul 5 15:53Is becoming like God good or evil? I would like to restrict giving God any other attribute except for knowing good and evil in this thread. Just for simplicity. I have two quotes I would like you to... more
- A TED talk for Kasey ... Baruch, Fri Jul 13 21:50http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Gk_Ddhr0M&feature=relmfu This is from 4 years ago, and now we maybe have a single Higgs particle type from the LHC. In this generic discussion of E8 theory, one... more
- For a monotheist, obviously both ... Baruch, Thu Jul 5 18:18
- All theoretical speculation based ona fundamental assumption (nm Kasey, Fri Jul 6 03:13
- More than one assumption usually ... Baruch, Fri Jul 6 07:43while empirical backing is a good thing, that empirical data has to be interpreted. And the interpretation of data, from say the LHC, is a very complicated business. Of course in that case, no less... more
- How do you have more than one assumption.... Kasey, Fri Jul 6 08:48that a creator god, by whatever name, actually exists? Regards, Kasey
- Lecture on QM by Google software engineer ... Baruch, Fri Jul 6 11:33http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEaecUuEqfc This covers the present "spookiness" of QM. There is something illogical about the conventional understanding of QM, and he has a go at determining what the ... more
- Most of the lecture is based on photons ... Baruch, Fri Jul 6 12:32and photons have really odd behavior compared to ordinary matter like electrons. In classical mechanics, if you try to deal with EM waves, you end up with infinities (this also happens with rest mass ... more
- Do you regard any assumption as a theory??? (nm) Kasey, Sat Jul 7 03:27
- Definitions ... Baruch, Sat Jul 7 06:56Per Physics: hypothesis = concept developed by the imagination, that is potentially repeatable, quantifiable and confirmable by public observation, Higgs boson for example theory = hypothesis... more
- End of lecture ... Baruch, Fri Jul 6 12:13it applies to consciousness, just as the Schroedinger's Cat thought experiment applies to what consciousness is in a non-sensical way. In summary, human consciousness is a Turing Computer simulation... more
- Theology is a branch of Metaphysics ... Baruch, Fri Jul 6 09:48just as Quantum Theory is a branch of Physics ;-) What is common to both situations is that we have some data, which in general might be either rational nor quantitative (what I dreamed last night)... more
- Mathematicians are idealists too ... Baruch, Fri Jul 6 08:06The Langlands program is the mathematicians equivalent of the on-going physics program of elementary particle unification that the LHC provides data for.... more
- Actual LHC chart ... Baruch, Fri Jul 6 07:55http://vixra.org/Combo/ Notice the peak of "geiger counts" around 125 Gev. An atom smasher experimental array (such as ATLAS) is a very large, very complicated version of a Geiger counter. It takes... more
- Re: For a monotheist, obviously both ... ipirate2, Thu Jul 5 20:37Interesting. Especially the Gnostic aspect but I am not sure it any of us would use the word complete. http://gnosticschristians.com/page3.html When I tell people about my apotheosis, I quickly point ... more
- There were cross-ocean communications ... Baruch, Thu Jul 5 22:08long before Columbus. But on the more metaphysical point ... this is why people like Jung believe in a collective unconscious ... though he stole the idea from Buddhism ... where it is the... more
- Re: There were cross-ocean communications ... ipirate2, Sun Jul 8 08:53Every hero has to have something to overcome. "and we no longer regard one side better than another." It may be that I will never reach a higher consciousness then as even as I recognize the worth of ... more
- Self-transcendence .... Baruch, Sun Jul 8 09:40http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene Well this may account for the ability of children to see circles and squares as personalities ... but not why adults loose the ability to fantasize or empathize. ... more
- Re: Self-transcendence .... ipirate2, Sun Jul 8 09:47I do not think we lose it. We just choose to compete instead of cooperate. That may be tied to our greed or insecurity. Regards DL
- Great disappointment ... Baruch, Sun Jul 8 09:30nobody ever asked me what my line of classical Chinese verse meant ;-( Philistines, surrounded by Philistines! Shalom
- Several ideas ... Baruch, Sun Jul 8 09:281. The goal is equanimity, to not be overly motivated by good and overly turned off by bad 2. It takes parents several years to corrupt their preschoolers 3. Replace all the bankers and politicians... more
- Re: Several ideas ... ipirate2, Sun Jul 8 09:58I do not dislike God either but as a Gnostic, it is my duty to set the God I found aside, raise the bar of my expectations and try to find a better one. To not do so is idol worship. Regards DL
- For me at this stage of my life ... Baruch, Sun Jul 8 13:12I have gone from better to better in my conception of G-d, ever since I first seriously thought about the subject over 40 years ago. But the highest I have gotten so far, is to try to do good, even... more
- Re: For me at this stage of my life ... ipirate2, Sun Jul 8 13:49We walk in the same direction my friend. Regards DL