OCRT Forum - Transgenders and prison

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Mirage
Transgenders and prison
Wed Sep 5, 2012 17:13
63.194.75.2

If the person goes through with the transition and becomes legally female, she will go to a woman's prison. I believe this person does have a right to have a sex change, but this is elective corrective surgery. It is elective surgery which is often incredibly important to the person who chooses to undergo this grueling procedure, but it isn't physically required to maintain health. Prisoners are often denied procedures and medicines which *are* necessary for physical health, so I don't think this person should get elective procedures paid for. You know that I am very very liberal about these things, but I would also say people should not have cleft palate repair surgery paid for in prison, even though it would greatly increase the prospect of employment when the prisoner is released, but many ordinary citizens can't afford that surgery. I do think prisoners who need it should get any medicine required for their survival, including AIDS medications. A person who needs cataract surgery or a surgery to prevent paralysis should get it. We are not barbarians, and our prisons should not cripple or blind people through neglect.

If she feels she needs to make a physical transition, she can wait until she gets out, or she can write a bestselling novel or something while in prison to pay for it. There are many transgender persons in prison and they are at high risk of violence from other prisoners. One of the street kids I used to know was put in solitary for his/her own protection for awhile. S/e was also HIV positive, so I think that was probably another reason they did that. I have never heard of another transgender prisoner demanding a paid sex change before. Probably a celebrity will pay for it anyway.

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We are surely going to hell in a dump truck — sai ram, Wed Sep 5 15:58

Now a Fed Judge in Mass.........has said the State (taxpayers) must pay for a sex change for a man convicted of killing his wife......for the love of Pete....we really need to have tests made up for... more
That racket is on all the time.... — Kasey, Wed Sep 5 20:35

the accused puts all his estate and assets into his wife's name, then applies to the State for legal aid to support his defence at no cost to him. A Dr Patel[on manslaughter charges of patients],... more
Twenty-seven kinds of people ... — Baruch, Wed Sep 5 20:03

so twenty-seven different kinds of prisons, though the majority of them for straight males and straight females. There are at least than many Federal prisons, so we wouldn't have to build more.... more
Transgenders and prison — Mirage, Wed Sep 5 17:13
I have to agree with you ... — Baruch, Wed Sep 5 19:56

probably segregation from the rest of the inmates while still in prison, but he/she can get her operation on her own, when she gets out, on her own dime, if the shrink still agrees. As it is, this is ... more
Doubt it's a ploy. — Mirage, Thu Sep 6 01:49

I think if you offered the average guy a deal, have your bits removed and you can spend the rest of your life in a woman's prison instead of a men's prison, most guys would turn this opportunity... more
I thought — sai ram, Wed Sep 5 17:37

When you went to prison you had few if any rights.....so I can't understand where they have this right at all..... And with many people not in prison who can't afford medicines and health care.....I... more
Re: I thought — Mirage, Wed Sep 5 19:19

In general most states consider a person's legal status when determining which prison they go to. So if the person is legally female, they would generally be moved to a women's prison. In some cases... more
Also — sai ram, Wed Sep 5 17:41

Do we have to pay for an operation again if she now feels she made a mistake.....and wants to be a man again......we as a nation can't afford this nonsense anymore....nor the stupid Judicial system... more
You have a choice, vote! (nm) — Baruch, Wed Sep 5 20:29

You're right — sai ram, Wed Sep 5 22:02

I could vote for this lawyer...or that lawyer.....sai ram
Unfortunately in most cases ... — Baruch, Wed Sep 5 22:07

judge is not an elected position. On the other hand, in the case of the Federal court system, the Founders (all genuflect) decided that to allow us simpletons to elect a judge, rather than thru... more
still boils down — sai ram, Wed Sep 5 22:12

to lawyers....which have and will always be part of the problem.....I suppose if we all elect plumbers.....our plumbing problems and expense will increase as a result.....sai ram
I don't think an elected judge has to be a lawyer ... — Baruch, Wed Sep 5 22:26

just ask Judge Roy Bean. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Roy_Bean Shalom
Ok trivial time — sai ram, Wed Sep 5 23:22

Without going to the internet....what was the significance of the Pecos...since he was the law west of it?..........sai ram
The Pecos is a river ... — Baruch, Thu Sep 6 06:22

though more of an arroyo most of the time, that runs N-S in W Texas. West of the Pecos, there were no real settlements, just Apache and Comanche Indians, and Texas Rangers. Even to the W of Langtry,... more
Kind of — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 06:31

the Pecos is a boundary...in west Texas there isn't much to go by in features...as you know.....there are no other rivers and streams west of the Pecos....and the Pecos isn't much of a river to start ... more
Of course the Apache and Comanche had their own law ;-) (nm) — Baruch, Thu Sep 6 06:36

Re: Also — Mirage, Wed Sep 5 20:23

A bit of background on sex change surgery. A significantly high proportion of people who actually go through with the surgery were born of "indeterminate sex" or "intersex." Meaning what it sounds... more
What's God plan — sai ram, Wed Sep 5 22:09

its gets down to...is their a plan God has for us all...or not. Is karma into play when you are born a midget, girl...boy...or question mark?.....and if we somehow mingle and change it....do we come... more
Re: What's God plan — Mirage, Thu Sep 6 01:34

I'm not a prophet, so wrong person to ask. However, judging by the animal kingdom sexual diversity is a part of nature, so I personally doubt God is opposed to variations in sex and gender, and... more
Most of us — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 06:53

Most of us live our lives not thinking about much...other than ourselves...some love ones....and give not much thought about our status after death. If God has a plan for us....I would assume He/She... more
Re: Most of us — Mirage, Thu Sep 6 08:40

Well, I think I do reap what I sow, here and now. Sexual diversity certainly hasn't kept us from overpopulating to the point where we are risking extinguishing ourselves. We are currently in a mass... more
Well — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 08:52

reaping and sowing seems different for different people.....there are cases of the thief that stole and got away to live the life of luxury on the tropical island....I suppose thats a good reap for... more
Kabbalah Jews call reincarnation ... gilgul ... — Baruch, Thu Sep 6 18:05

it is a very old, if uncommon belief. Probably learned from Indians encountered in Babylon. Shalom
Re: Well — Mirage, Thu Sep 6 09:13

The leg humping dogs do is a dominance behavior. Alpha dogs can pretty much do any member of the pack they want. The dog is trying to alpha you. As you have said, both male and female dogs will do... more
Actually — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 09:49

we don't understand the thinking process of animals....we just theorize using what we think might be going on......most dogs and most animals are leary of people....with no thinking I believe of... more
Oh Lordy — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 09:55

...."I didn't want anything to do with any other animals...only people"......what i typed and what appeared is different....I meant to say..I had a dog and it didn't want anything to do with other... more
"a prod to learn to love" — Baruch, Thu Sep 6 06:58

that is very good analysis. The rest not much I can agree with. What I see, is that G-d's plan is G-d's, not mine. What matters more to me is that G-d is the #1 Asshole. Book of Job. Infinite power... more
Have you ever learned — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 07:22

have you ever learned anything in a dream?....a dream that surely is not real but has some purpose anyway to teach. Ever wake up sad..crying?...feeling horrible about something you did in a... more
That shows your spirit isn't exhausted yet ... — Baruch, Thu Sep 6 12:51

you still have some ganas. Waking reality is a kind of dream? That is exactly what I mean, just expressed backwards. I don't know if I am morally responsible for what happens in a dream ... assuming... more
Re: That shows your spirit isn't exhausted yet ... — Mirage, Sun Sep 9 20:42

For me it is easier to program what I will dream about when I am awake. It's very simple and it works for me and a lot of other people. You just spend the last 30 minutes to an hour before sleep... more
A frustrating dream or two last night ... — Baruch, Mon Sep 10 07:01

was seeing a house, with two women outside, and one inside sticking her head out a window talking to the other two. They seemed familiar, the woman in the window maybe my mother at a younger age. At... more
You really know how to have fun at a picnic... — Paradigm10, Wed Sep 12 20:02

Usually people just play horseshoes or volleyball, maybe get a little sideways. How about this for a fun dream. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THsUVY-e2pU
The shots of real islands were ... fascinating ... — Baruch, Wed Sep 12 23:53

islands are mini-ecologies, they are living entities both above and below the waterline. Shalom
Well — sai ram, Mon Sep 10 17:13

since I can't remember faces or names.....I'll stay out of your debate.....but I do know that when eating strawberries they all tend to look alike to me....and resemble others I've eaten... more
Re: A frustrating dream or two last night ... — Mirage, Mon Sep 10 09:03

Regarding your dream hypothesis, chances are yes. I wouldn't call it Statistics 101, but you could probably get some statistics from police artists. There is some software they use which has many... more
It's a bit more complicated — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 16:39

God is the diamond and also the facets......however, the facets don't know this......Sai Baba was known to come to many Devottees in dreams...HE came in about my second one and showed me what bliss... more
Great honesty on your part ... — Baruch, Thu Sep 6 06:34

or at least great self awareness. Also, I agree, the idea of sequential karma is often abused, even in India. The wealthy are the way they are, not because of good deeds in this life (American) but... more
G-d's plan ... — Baruch, Wed Sep 5 22:31

there is the optimist view and the pessimist view. G-d having a twisted sense of humor will say ... let the optimist and the pessimist spend eternity together, then both will be right, and both will... more
All just more speulative fantasies! (nm) — Kasey, Thu Sep 6 05:25

but — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 07:29

everyone's belief are speculative...even your belief that mine are......sai ram
Poetry and humor ... — Baruch, Thu Sep 6 06:27

can you see the cruel humor of the primordial Hindu view? When you die, you return to the environment, something even you agree with, as a materialist. As a part of the environment, you participate... more
This senario — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 07:09

of eat or be eaten...certainly is a non-loving senario....any God...and most certainly a good loving God....would not have created this.....unless there was a purpose behind it all. One thing that... more
Most, if not all animals in their natural setting.... — Kasey, Sat Sep 8 06:50

kill only by necessity to survive, and not for sport as humans do. Nothing evil in their quest for survival food for themselves and their young. Evolution has determined which species have survived... more
Re: Most, if not all animals in their natural setting.... — Mirage, Sun Sep 9 02:19

Believe it or not, I agree with you that our day will come and our dominant position in nature will be held be some other species. We may become extinct, or or our descendants may linger on, perhaps... more
Ideals are goals, striven for but never reached ... — Baruch, Sun Sep 9 07:32

That is how I take our Abrahamic stewardship. Of course, the belief shared by rich and poor alike, that we are the owners ... is the gravity that pulls us and Icarus back down to Earth. Shalom
Re: Ideals are goals, striven for but never reached ... — Mirage, Sun Sep 9 11:24

Yes, the idea that we are owners is foolish and harmful. There are a few traits that caused us to be overly successful and led to this imbalance. We are predators that will hunt and eliminate other... more
Correct, a natural mutation ... — Baruch, Sun Sep 9 12:09

or man-made genetic manipulation, out of some bacteria or virus could strike at any time. In terms of shear numbers, the microbes have the megafauna and megaflora beat hands down. We are an... more
Esp. in only 6000years as some believe! (nm) — Kasey, Sun Sep 9 03:29

See, you do worship ... — Baruch, Sat Sep 8 08:32

but it is nature (or David Attenborough?) that you worship ;-). You have a romantic, not a realistic view of nature ... which puts you in the Romantic period, not the Enlightenment period. Lion males ... more
The lion example is still one of.... — Kasey, Sun Sep 9 04:02

survival, not sport! As for our origins, it goes further back than you quote,...gill slits in early embrio stages indicate our origins, way way back, as from the oceans along with all other forms of... more
Then why do you oppose Indonesia or China ... — Baruch, Sun Sep 9 07:35

invading Australia for its minerals? It is only survival, not sport. Your dualism is a false naturalism (because you are unconsciously Abrahamic). Shalom
That's a rubbish comment.....the point of the matter was ... — Kasey, Sun Sep 9 08:02

the killing of animals for sport as humans do. That comment now is economic vandalism via war. Their raw materials are theirs as are ours. In today's modern world, practices of the past taken by war... more
Your quaint post-WW II views ... — Baruch, Sun Sep 9 09:08

have been made obsolete by the return of the world's foreign policy to 19th century hegemony. The Cold War ended the post-WW II era. Welcome to the new 19th century. OK, so you don't like fox... more
Will you be waiting for the Hispanics... — Kasey, Sun Sep 9 19:50

to become the majority in the Mexican/US border states, to then demand re-union with Mexico. Chickens may come home to roost...Welcome to the 21st Century! Regards, Kasey
Of course, I fully expect them to ... — Baruch, Sun Sep 9 22:00

but in less than 100 years Australia will be S Indonesia (under Chinese resource extraction), The much of the US will be New Mexico. Similarly much of S Europe will be will be colonized by N and W... more
Can't agree. — Mirage, Sun Sep 9 22:32

US has a strong presence in Australia and Australia would get our support if needed, because we need Australia. Not sure what you mean by much of the US will be New Mexico. California will remain a... more
New Mexico used to include ... — Baruch, Mon Sep 10 06:53

everything south of Oregon and W of the Mississippi. The US works for China, so if China tells the US to get out of the way of Indonesia, then the US will salute and do it. That is assuming the Queen ... more
And while the Republicans still think that.... — Kasey, Mon Sep 10 07:38

Russia is still the enemy of the USA, nothing has really changed in much of US thinking.....and if they get back into government....who knows. As for you dog eat dog comments from a previous post,... more
I wish I were as optimistic as you ... — Baruch, Mon Sep 10 20:33

the 1st world has a cataclysm every 60 years or so, so we are due for a cataclysm in the N Hemisphere, whether it will strike primarily Taiwan/S Korea/Japan or Canada/US (Mexico is already a... more
Maybe wheeling and dealing is also part of evolution? (nm) — Kasey, Tue Sep 11 08:49

Saving appearances? — Baruch, Tue Sep 11 12:39

If a given explanation is too general, it ceases to have meaning. All change is evolution, whether biological or not. Evolution does not imply human superiority, or the superiority of certain groups... more
But if change occurs too fast ...... — Kasey, Wed Sep 12 05:54

the evolutionary mutations are unable to keep up....In a capitalist system that means closing the door of the business... a la China and its effects on all other competing one. Regards, Kasey
Biological vs social evolution ... — Baruch, Wed Sep 12 06:51

biological evolution moves pretty slow ... social evolution moves very fast. The ability to keep up with social innovations is high, only stubborness prevents keeping up. Both are driven by sex ...... more
When all capitalist governments and economists and stock... — Kasey, Thu Sep 13 07:20

markets come to the realization that continued economic growth has finite limits and nations in Asia, the Americas and Africa in particular realize that the continued urbanization of their societies... more
Read about chaos capitalism ... — Baruch, Thu Sep 13 08:07

the current paradigm isn't to build a viable company, let alone a viable world. This is capitalism as only the most corrupt and criminal can work it. Certainly there are resource and pollution limits ... more
And the Tibets aren't Chinese either! (nm) — Kasey, Tue Sep 11 00:14

So do you subscribe to the notion .. — Baruch, Tue Sep 11 04:40

that countries should be one language, one ethnicity, one religion, one politics? Voluntarily of course. The Chinese and Tibetans have fought for over 1000 years, with the Tibetans sometimes winning. ... more
That doesn't justify Chenese revenge today! (nm) — Kasey, Fri Sep 14 05:10

As usual you think of modern time ... — Baruch, Fri Sep 14 15:08

where anything more distant than last week, is irrelevant to your present and future. Traditional people aren't like that, the past and future exist very much in their present. So for people who see... more
Re: Will you be waiting for the Hispanics... — Mirage, Sun Sep 9 21:04

In many places we already have a Hispanic majority, and they really don't seem very interested in that. Remember that most Mexican immigrants come here because they want better opportunities than... more
Secession mostly internal ... — Baruch, Sun Sep 9 22:02

N California wants to be a different state than S California. As a Blue state, it is unlikely to go Confederate. Shalom
Oh you mean the partition movements? — Mirage, Sun Sep 9 23:48

Different thing, and honestly most people pay no attention to either. There have been some suggestions of splitting up the state into 3 states vertically or 2 states horizontally, but again, all that ... more
King George III made the same mistake ;-) (nm) — Baruch, Mon Sep 10 06:49

Here is urban vs. rural interests (nm) — Mirage, Sun Sep 9 22:54

Not so much that. — Mirage, Sun Sep 9 22:19

There have been movements here, and there was one down in the San Fernando Valley again last time I was there, but they generally advocate the whole state splitting off. N California and S California ... more
Vike - — Baruch, Mon Sep 10 07:02

have you seen the preview of The Cloud Atlas? If so, what do you think? Shalom
Re: Vike - — Mirage, Mon Sep 10 09:07

Haven't seen it yet. I'll look for it and let you know. My computer has been having a lot of trouble with videos lately, probably because I have my security settings pretty high.
Also... — Mirage, Sun Sep 9 21:26

We do border Mexico but it isn't safe to assume a Hispanic/Latino person here has Mexican ancestry, even in California. There are many countries which fall within the possible origins of a Hispanic... more
EU is like ... — Baruch, Sun Sep 9 22:07

a camel is a horse designed by a committee. There was Clinton ambitions for NAFTA, but S America is breaking free in Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia and Argentina. W Canada could break up from Ottawa and ... more
Tar sands — Mirage, Mon Sep 10 00:50

Gah, sometimes I wonder if we can get any more suicidal as a species. That stuff is bad news for the global environment and devastating for the local ecosystem. China is already poisoning itself all... more
Narrow view ... — Baruch, Mon Sep 10 06:47

there are thousands of Chinese workers in Africa and even in Europe (see N Italy). The invasion isn't with armies, and it isn't refugee Chinese fleeing starvation like in the 19th century. In Africa... more
Re: This senario — Mirage, Thu Sep 6 08:51

If some tiny part of me ends up in a flower after I am gone, I don't mind a bit if someone puts it in a vase. If some part of me becomes part of a cow, I don't mind if that cow feeds a stranger. I... more
Comic relief... — Paradigm10, Thu Sep 6 22:28

[Scene: Interior. A New York apartment. There is a knock at the door.] Woman: [speaking through closed door] Yes? Voice: (mumbling) Mrs. Arlsburgerhhh? Woman: Who? Voice: (mumbling) Mrs.... more
*giggle* — Mirage, Fri Sep 7 01:38

Thank you! I have a doctor appointment tomorrow. I needed that.
More likely a politician ;-( (nm) — Baruch, Thu Sep 6 23:59

Maybe do a write-in for Jabba. — Mirage, Fri Sep 7 01:39

The Jedi party failed to win.
here's some more thoughts — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 09:06

"The baby weeps as soon as it is born because the individual being has no desire to get entangled in the objective world once again. Science describes it as the process of breathing for the first... more
Often expressed in more than one culture ... — Baruch, Thu Sep 6 18:03

"All are beggars at the gate of God". Also in ancient Ireland, people would weep at a birth, but celebrate at a funeral (the wake). This is because the afterlife was also thought to be cyclic (common ... more
Re: here's some more thoughts — Mirage, Thu Sep 6 09:18

May he rest in peace. I know that you must miss him.
thanks..yes I do — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 09:53

but He is in my heart...thats where He wanted to be anyway.sai ram
most of the time — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 08:56

most of the time we eat ourselves up.....and few like the taste...but munch away none the less......sai ram...
Yep — Mirage, Thu Sep 6 09:03

That's going to be my fate, I think.
It is possible to do better ... — Baruch, Thu Sep 6 07:15

that is as optimistic as I get. And I do enjoy eating, provided I didn't have to kill it first myself. Like most American's support for the military, they will pay their taxes for that, but few... more
ah..but — sai ram, Thu Sep 6 07:27

even great Sadhguru's are on a learning curve...that thats what happens with greed.....sai ram..
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