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Fri Jan 12, 2018 14:13

The concept of who and what God is has always been a defining question for humanity, and we have done a lot of things positive & negative in the search for this answer. I intend to provide the logical underpinnings of a rational argument for all approaches to Divinity, whatever your concept of Divinity may be, even if that is to say there is no god of any kind.

The main point of contention between the rational agnostic atheist and the Christian, for example, is that an infinite God is illogical. All of the terms used to describe God by Christians are internally inconsistent and mutually exclusive. To recap the general arguments: all knowing simply does not compute. You end up in a loop, its illogical.

All-powerful presents certain logical problems, as well. Rationalists ask the question: Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it? Typically, the rationalist will point out how this situation makes no sense at all, so little sense in fact you simply cannot compute this, it is a paradox.

Well, not exactly. That is only true in three dimensions.

If God is all knowing, then he knows the future, by implication. This means if he has a plan of any kind whatsoever, then one must consider that things unfold according to Gods will, because he knows the future. Therefore, by further implication we can assume that Gods plan must be pretty sophisticated.

What did you expect, it's God right?

The implication of God knowing the future and having a plan is that he is looking back at humanity from our future. Logically, one must consider how such a divine being would know the end game, in fact, would write the end game himself like a crazy cosmic programmer.

Such a being would have no need to test us. That idea doesn't make sense. Test us? For what purpose? If we truly believe that God has a plan and knows everything, then by extension, he knows the outcome of every test in advance. So why all the horrible things in the world?

Only one conclusion can be inferred here. If our knowledge is limited, and Gods knowledge is not, then we must assume the things that appear as tests, are really there for us to learn from. In other words, God isn't testing us, he is teaching us. Teaching us who we really are. Teaching how to control our baser nature.

If God is effectively looking backwards and writing the end game, and influencing human events, then he is leading us up a path towards something. But his plan, given his infinite knowledge, is bound to be complex.
Humans should try to understand it in its proper context.

So let's go back to our previous question about rocks being made that are too big too lift by an infinite God. How do we resolve this paradox? By thinking four dimensionally. If God is in fact influencing human events, then he would necessarily have to engage in the transmission of information from the future, from our perspective as humans.

This means that there is logically no way to determine a difference between God, and ET with possibly a billion years worth of technology. Possibly using rotating blackholes to manipulate our history.

This is profound because from our position on the timeline as humans with our limited language/cognition, we cannot logically determine the difference between ET posing as God, or God posing as ET, to motivate certain people in certain ways in accordance with an incredibly intricate plan.

This is because ET could very well be using a complete understanding of gravity at the quantum scale, using a unified theory of everything and amazing technology to suss out any information in the past that they need too. To a human being, this would have all the appearance of omniscience, and the ability to manipulate gravity at that scale would confer the ability to control events, start natural processes, even write/rewrite DNA, this would look exactly like omnipotence from our position.

And how could such a being make a rock so big he cant lift it?

Four dimensionally, by reaching into the past at any, and as many points as necessary, and manipulating them precisely, God could in fact start a process that results in a mountain range too big for him to simply move by ripping it out of the ground.

Or maybe he could, but why would he need too?

God is like the Ultimate Aikido Master. Check out this fancy move:  

So instead of grabbing a mountain and ripping it out of the ground, God reaches back into the deep past and tweaks a few things with the tiniest nudges, and a butterfly flaps it's wings and suddenly that mountain is over there now. Right where & when he wants it.

The expression of divinity here is that God didn't need to strong arm a mountain at all. That would simply be an expression of destruction. Not really all that impressive, really. Humans have things that can blow up mountains, too.

But moving a mountain with a nuke, that's easy, dude.

Moving a mountain with a butterfly, that's pretty divine.

Now you see God in 4D.

Try to understand that everyone has a place in the plan, presumably or we would all have been gathered into one religion. Which I believe history has thoroughly demonstrated is impossible, despite ANY/ALL levels of repression, oppression, cajoling, threatening, intimidation, or indoctrination.

So either God is all-knowing, and also smarter than humans, and thus has a very intricate plan or he is limited in capability & knowledge and thus can only influence things to a limited extent. The implication of which might be that non-christians are going against God's plan. Or maybe that non-Muslims are not following the plan. Or that non-Spaghetti Monsters are all in trouble on Judgement Day, when perhaps only the stubbornly rational/empirical will be saved..much to everyone's surprise. 

But if we assume that God is all-knowing, and has a plan, and that things generally unfold according to that plan, then one would have to assume that God intends for there to be different religions and points of view concerning divinity, the universe, and the meaning of life and everything.

Free Will

Free will does exist, even with an all-knowing entity of some kind planning humanity's future. But it isn't terribly hard to account for:

Fw = [things you cannot do], [things you could do, but won't], [things you would do, but cannot], [things you can/would do]

The [things you can/would do] is defined as the sum total of you: beliefs, ideas, experiences, education/training/conditioning. This solution set is influenced strongly by the tendency to seek/give reinforcement of biases/misconceptions. 

The implication of this is that free will is a stream, being pulled along in particular directions by the free will-stream of other humans in their proximity. A further implication is that free will-streams amalgamate together to form the river that is the human path through spacetime we call history.

The end result is that free-will ultimately must be left channels within the plan to flow through, or like a river not under the control of civil engineers, it will flood it's banks in random places. But for an all-knowing entity, perhaps looking backwards at us from our future, would be able to see precisely how to account for these free-will streams, and thus control the river. Like a team of engineers might design dams, levy systems, or spill-ways, but far more complex.

Indeed, the need to account for human free-will is the very reason such a plan would in fact be enormously intricate.

God = [0...infinity]

What's significant here is that due to the duality of ET = God/ God = ET.

This means the solution set for God ends up being [zero...inifinity].

If an extraterrestrial intelligence from the future, posing as God/gods can logically be demonstrated to have the same appearance of omnipotence and omniscience as God, as defined by Christianity (infinite), then by the inverse we cannot tell if this the infinite God of the Bible, taking on whatever appearance he needs to, in order to facilitate his plan and make it work out the way he wants it too.

Any persons idea or expression can be run through this logic, and return an equal probability of being true.

If any Intelligence of any kind, is in any way influencing human history, in accordance with a plan, implying specific intentions with regard to our future, that entity must necessarily be pulling information from our future and transmitting it to us. Effectively the same thing, from our perspective, as extraterrestrials from our future using their knowledge and technology to look back at us, and transmit information or perhaps use a very complete understanding of gravity to manipulate events in a more direct way.

By contrast, as we look into the infinite future, we would see the appearance of omniscience, and omnipotence, and if you believe that this entity's plan is good for us, all-loving as well. It seems probable that the horrible things that happen in the world are there to teach us, so we will know who we truly are. Preparing us for something, perhaps.

So here we have the logical underpinnings that can lend rational ground to both the atheist, and the theist of any kind, since whatever idea of divinity or no divinity each possesses can be describe within the solution set of zero to infinity. I'll demonstrate:

The Christian says God is infinite, the atheist says I see no evidence, so therefore will not believe this statement. I'm asserting that both are correct within the limits of our ability to reason. The Christian says his God is infinite, but the atheist is skeptical of this for many good reasons. He should be.

However, the atheist might then consider that if time travel solutions to Enstien's field equations turn out to be more than mathematical artifacts, just like black holes turned out to be, then it is possible that one day, in the far distant future we may come to realize as our distant descendants discover how to use these equations to engage in time travel and study their history was us, all along. Our descendants are the ones who end up handing the Torah to the ancient Jews, perhaps. 

My point here is NOT that God is an extraterrestrial. Just that God, being infinite, could appear this way to us, and we cannot logically discern the difference.

We can infer from this that if God wanted it any other way, it would be. Because I could not consider the word of God from a different perspective until I was able to see the God = ET/ET = God duality.

This is because I am a rational atheist. And would not spend any time pondering a book like the bible. I was dismissive. Because it was couched in religious and often very illogical language. Now, I see it actually contains real wisdom but it's up to Christians to figure out how to pull out the wisdom, and exactly what that means, so they can share with the rest of us, but in a way that others who will never accept Jesus can still understand.

I'll give you a hint: Love your enemy was not a morality statement. It's a statement about description. You can't know who you are without your antithesis to let you know who you are and why you're a Christian, for example.

So the Christian should come to understand that the Satanist isn't really his enemy that needs to be destroyed. If you believe God has a plan, knows all, and knows what he is doing, then try to see things from that perspective. The Satanist is there to remind Christians of why they believe what they believe.

If God wanted everybody amalgamated into one religion, he could affect this very easily. One would assume, unless he isn't actually infinite.

So let's look at it a different way, lets make a few assumptions. Let's say God knows exactly what he is doing, and let's assume it's all about teaching us about ourselves, and then let us look at this picture in that light:

One could say, God put the Satanist here to help the Christian know who he is and why he is a Christian. He put the Christian here to help the Satanist know why he stands apart. And their two completely different perspectives are actually valuable to each other. Without the unfaithful, how would the faithful know why they are faithful?

Without the rational atheist to hone his logic and clarify thought, how would we find physical truths that let us 'read the mind of God' as Einstein put it?

Without the spiritualist, to seek spiritual truth through meditation and introspection, how could we arrive at spiritual truths to integrate with the physical truths discovered by others?

Without Christianity, with it's hierarchical structure and the historical symbolism of the cross, without it's army of Christ, what would keep the civil authorities from simply pulling the cloak of ultimate authority over itself, doing as they have historically done and usurping the authority of God by placing itself between God and the people, or by doing away with God entirely? This results in godless theocracy, or communism. In order to provide this structure to humanity, however, religion must to some extent emulate the governments that they counter. This is why it is important that we have different religions, spiritualities and philosophies. Everyone being a Christian results in godless communism, or the government depicted in the movie V.

Without the Pagans, Wiccans, Witches and such, our creative expression which is crucial to our collective ability to live properly and cognate the Divine in novel ways would be seriously diminished. Their freeform expression of pondering the divine in extremely creative ways, often with a base in nature, is always finding news ways to express itself.

I could go on with examples of how we actually help define each other through our diversity ad infinitum.

The final conclusion that I can draw here is that divinity is too complex a concept for any one human or one group of humans to cognate properly. It will literally take all of our diverse viewpoints to integrate the physical truths, with the spiritual truths and help us reach a point of social enlightenment.

So, perhaps Christians should consider new ways to interpret the Word of God, actually finding the wisdom contain therein, instead of simply relying on pure faith that wisdom is there.

If you do that, then you will never understand your own religion. Enlightenment cannot simply be handed to you all pre-packaged and ready for you to memorize all of the Answers, to be regurgitated on the Big Test.

Find the wisdom in the bible and figure out why it is wise. Don't simply try to get others to believe it because an authority figure told you it had value.

What Value?

Previously, I described how 'love your enemy' was more than a simple morality statement, but a descriptive statement. It tells us that without our opposite to define us we will not know who we are. This is an example of the way a Christian might spread the Word of God to non-Christians, who would otherwise not be interested in hearing what they have to say.

Let's look at another example: 'The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions'. This is telling us something very important about human nature. Humans will constantly attempt to enslave one another to each others prejudices & biases. It is the very basis of human interaction. Therefore, we have a tendency to follow those among us gifted with leadership abilities, for example, and we end up following the messenger instead of the message.

And even the most moral leader will become a liberator/enslaver, as he leads his people into slavery & corruption. This happens because humans are very corruptible creatures. The conviction of followers, because of their belief in their leader, will first cause corruption in the mind of that leader. He will begin to think that he must be right because of what his followers project onto him.
He will reflect what is projected, and being unable to decouple from belief in his own pretensions, will begin to think that his views are correct because of who he is, rather than reasons of rationality, for example.

This will cause the leader to lead his people astray, simply because as he is now convinc

    • Kudos ...Baruch, Sun Jan 14 04:30
      For thinking for yourself. I agree with free will. There is predetermination, and predestination. They aren't the same. In predetermination, G-d knows in advance what we freely choose. In... more
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