GatewayInteresting view of the biblesWed Feb 9, 2011 1:30pm18.104.22.168background take on homosexuality. Some of this articles subject I have never been aware of and am surprised that christians that are as bible knowledgable are so opposed to homosexuality.
My Take: The Bible’s surprisingly mixed messages on sexuality
Editor's Note: Jennifer Wright Knust is author of Unprotected Texts: The Bible’s Surprising Contradictions about Sex and Desire.
By Jennifer Wright Knust, Special to CNN
We often hears that Christians have no choice but to regard homosexuality as a sin - that Scripture simply demands it.
As a Bible scholar and pastor myself, I say that Scripture does no such thing.
"I love gay people, but the Bible forces me to condemn them" is a poor excuse that attempts to avoid accountability by wrapping a very particular and narrow interpretation of a few biblical passages in a cloak of divinely inspired respectability.
Truth is, Scripture can be interpreted in any number of ways. And biblical writers held a much more complicated view of human sexuality than contemporary debates have acknowledged.
In Genesis, for example, it would seem that God’s original intention for humanity was androgyny, not sexual differentiation and heterosexuality.
Genesis includes two versions of the story of God’s creation of the human person. First, God creates humanity male and female and then God forms the human person again, this time in the Garden of Eden. The second human person is given the name Adam and the female is formed from his rib.
Ancient Christians and Jews explained this two-step creation by imagining that the first human person possessed the genitalia of both sexes. Then, when the androgynous, dually-sexed person was placed in the garden, s/he was divided in two.
According to this account, the man “clings to the woman” in an attempt to regain half his flesh, which God took from him once he was placed in Eden. As third century Rabbi Samuel bar Nahman explained, when God created the first man, God created him with two faces. “Then he split the androgyne and made two bodies, one on each side, and turned them about.”
When the apostle Paul envisioned the bodies that would be given to humanity at the end of time, he imagined that they would be androgynous, “not male and female.” The third-century non-canonical Gospel of Philip, meanwhile, lamented that sexual difference had been created at all: “If the female had not separated from the male, she and the male would not die. That being’s separation became the source of death.”
From these perspectives, God’s original plan was sexual unity in one body, not two. The Genesis creation stories can support the notion that sexual intercourse is designed to reunite male and female into one body, but they can also suggest that God’s blessing was first placed on an undifferentiated body that didn’t have sex at all.
Heterosexual sex was therefore an afterthought designed to give back the man what he had lost.
Despite common misperceptions, biblical writers could also imagine same-sex intimacy as a source of blessing. For example, the seemingly intimate relationship between the Old Testament's David and Jonathan, in which Jonathan loved David more than he loved women, may have been intended to justify David’s rise as king.
Jonathan, not David, was a king’s son. David was only a shepherd. Yet by becoming David’s “woman,” Jonathan voluntarily gave up his place for his beloved friend.
Thus, Jonathan “took great delight in David,” foiling King Saul’s attempts to arrange for David’s death (1 Samuel 19:1). Choosing David over his father, Jonathan makes a formal covenant with his friend, asking David to remain faithful to him and his descendants.
Sealing the covenant, David swears his devotion to Jonathan, “for he loved him as he loved his own life” (1 Samuel 20:17). When Jonathan is killed, King David composes a eulogy for him, praising his devotion: “greatly beloved were you to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women” (2 Samuel 1:26).
Confident claims about the forms of sex rejected by God are also called into question by early Christian interpretations of the story of Sodom. From the perspective of the New Testament, it was the near rape of angels - not sex between men - that led to the demise of the city.
Linking a strange story in Genesis about “sons of God” who lust after “daughters of men” to the story of the angels who visit Abraham’s nephew Lot, New Testament writers concluded that the mingling of human and divine flesh is an intolerable sin.
As the New Testament letter Jude puts it:
And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great day. Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and went after strange flesh, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire (Jude 6-7).
The first time angels dared to mix with humans, God flooded the earth, saving only Noah, his family, and the animals. In the case of Sodom, as soon as men attempted to engage in sexual activity with angels, God obliterated the city with fire, delivering only Lot and his family. Sex with angels was regarded as the most dangerous and offensive sex of all.
It’s true that same-sex intimacy is condemned in a few biblical passages. But these passages, which I can count on one hand, are addressed to specific sex acts and specific persons, not to all humanity forever, and they can be interpreted in any number of ways.
The book of Leviticus, for example, is directed at Israelite men, offering instructions regarding legitimate sexual partners so long as they are living in Israel. Biblical patriarchs and kings violate nearly every one of these commandments.
Paul’s letters urge followers of Christ to remain celibate and blame all Gentiles in general for their poor sexual standards. Jesus, meanwhile, says nothing at all about same-sex pairing, and when he discusses marriage, he discourages it.
So why are we pretending that the Bible is dictating our sexual morals? It isn’t.
Moreover, as Americans we should have learned by now that such a simplistic approach to the Bible will lead us astray.
Only a little more than a century ago, many of the very same passages now being invoked to argue that the scriptures label homosexuality a sin or that God cannot countenance gay marriage were used to justify not “biblical marriage” but slavery.
Yes, the apostle Paul selected same-sex pairings as one among many possible examples of human sin, but he also assumed that slavery was acceptable and then did nothing to protect slaves from sexual use by their masters, a common practice at the time. Letters attributed to him go so far as to command slaves to obey their masters and women to obey their husbands as if they were obeying Christ.
These passages served as fundamental proof texts to those who were arguing that slavery was God’s will and accusing abolitionists of failing to obey biblical mandates.
It is therefore disturbing to hear some Christian leaders today claim that they have no choice but to regard homosexuality as a sin. They do have a choice and should be held accountable for the ones they are making.
- There was NOTHING homosexual in the relationship of David F Mayer, Wed Feb 9 5:21pmDavid and Jonathan. There is absolutely not a word of support for that position. The nearest thing was that David was married to Jonathan's SISTER, Michal. That was a sexual relationship! David F... more
- This woman doesn't recognize brotherly love, Gvu, Thu Feb 10 7:00amthat the verse is expressing a deep ma bound, sexual deviance not included. Man have shown this on the battle field. Soldiers throwing themselves on a grenade to save the life of his fellow soldiers. ... more
- He just CITED words of support! greenman, Wed Feb 9 6:47pm"Surpassing the love of woman" doesn't suggest a more than friendly relationship to you? It's speculation, I agree, but to say there was "nothing homosexual in the relationship" is merely doctrinaire ... more
- true... (nm) donk, Thu Feb 10 3:51am
- No, it does not. You are misreading it entirely. (nm) David F Mayer, Wed Feb 9 7:10pm
- To me greenman, Wed Feb 9 7:12pm"I'm reading it differently" isn't the same as "you're misreading it entirely." But maybe that's just me.
- Viewed from the cultural context of Ancient Israel, David F Mayer, Wed Feb 9 7:41pmthe notion of male-male nonsexual love is very strong. Also, the Ancient Israelites abhorred homosexuality. I am not saying that they were right, but it was indeed detested. I doubt if King David... more
- There's no certain resolution greenman, Thu Feb 10 5:25pmWe simply don't know whether he was or wasn't. People say the same of Lincoln, again, we don't know the absolute truth of it.
- true... donk, Thu Feb 10 6:39am"...the notion of male-male nonsexual love is very strong." But that doesn't really put to bed the idea of homosexuality. I think it is a non-issue and none of our business -- much like abortion.
- Those who are evil paint it on everything shadow, Wed Feb 9 5:36pmthat's sacred; they don't have the truth to argue with, so they spread the lies. It's about all they've got as far as I can tell.
- Lies? Or just a different opinion? Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 9:12amshadow, Most often people fully believe their own opinions. Something is only a lie, if you believe it is when you say it. If you believe it, it may be incorrect, but it is not a lie.
- Interesting, I don't disagree with the remark Gvu, Thu Feb 10 7:57ambut would like to see it bonafide with scripture. I have often said that those who don't hold to a set of principals with cast people (characterize) from what ever feelings they hold. As I often say, ... more
- The problem is ... OldCM, Thu Feb 10 6:44am... that as long as you believe that you are God-inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore know all truth contained in the Holy Scriptures and anyone with a contrary conclusion is "evil", no one can... more
- The only "evil" here greenman, Wed Feb 9 6:48pm..is in pretending that a homosexual relationship IS evil. Claiming that the possibility is a "lie" is itself dishonest. Nothing new for you, of course...
- personal attacks are against board rules... Faith, Thu Feb 10 6:18amYou need to stop or I will bring this to Ken's attention.
- LOL! greenman, Thu Feb 10 5:27pmGo whine to someone who cares, Christer. YOu attack people on here CONSTANTLY. Your Christian hypocrisy stinks to high heaven.
- I hope that you will remember that sometime (nm) Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 9:21am
- Waaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh KR, Thu Feb 10 6:50amIf you can't handle the truth, don't post your lies and crap.
- I have studied that text repeatedly, in the original Hebrew David F Mayer, Wed Feb 9 5:41pmand cannot find a trace of homosexuality in their friendship. I had a dear male friend for many years who passed away about 5 years ago. We were as close as any two friends could be. Neither of us... more
- Key words there greenman, Wed Feb 9 7:11pm"I have a feeling." My condolences over the loss of your friend, however.
- It's a mark of the decadence of shadow, Wed Feb 9 6:11pmour culture that men cannot show affection to other men as friends, and the same among women, without it being 'tagged' as a sexual attraction. I agree with what you say, David. I have women friends... more
- Wolves in sheep clothing, it did not take long into the Gvu, Wed Feb 9 4:44pmarticle to see tge error of her ways. If you believe in a deceived premise than you can only come to a deceived conclusion; "gay people". There is no such thing as gay people, it is people who are... more
- according to the opinion of some men Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 9:05pmGvu, Something that does not function is elemintated in nature as as this has been around as long as ma, it would appear to be part of the creator's plan, regardless of how that upsets people. Again... more
- Exodus Internation has shown that Sexual preference is Gvu, Fri Feb 11 5:11ama matter of choice. Sexual sins, murder, lying, stealing, and so on has been around since sin enter the picture and it was not the plan of God. As for me and my hous there is only One God and the... more
- Tell me Gvu, is it the facts that are wrong Gateway, Wed Feb 9 8:51pmor the arguements the Pastor presents that you find wrong? I find it refreshing and honest that a christian Pastor can admit that there are many ways the bible may be interpreted. Question for... more
- She's not a Christian pastor Faith, Thu Feb 10 7:15amIf she really were Christian, she wouldn't be preaching in the first place, let alone preaching the nonsense that she is...she smells a mile away.... There are not many ways to interpret Scripture.... more
- In your opinion. Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 9:17amFaith, Opinion is not always fact. You are using your opinion, without knowing the person to make a decision about how Christian they are. You do that a lot here.
- I can tell by what she wrote Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:28amI can tell by the mere fact that she is a so-called pastor in the first place...
- Oh you are god now. Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 8:55pmFaith, Again you mistake your opinion for fact. Even what she writes gives us only a partial view of what she thinks and without knowing what she thinks we are not able to pass judgment. That is why... more
- You DO know that there are other denominations... Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 8:22amthan Baptist, right? And some of those just happen to have female pastors. You might not approve, but who are you to tell them they are wrong when they think YOU are? I love the disunity of... more
- The Bible says they are wrong... Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:12amThe disunity is not in the Christian..but only those who like to call themselves Christian..when clearly they are ignoring God's Word. Christianity has survived many things...and will continue to do... more
- In your opinion. (nm) Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 9:15am
- No..it's stated in the Bible (nm) Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:25am
- Which is man's opinion about god and man Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 8:59pmFaith, Again god is not talking, if he ever has. So we have only the opinion of man, be it the writers, or of the ministers as to what god thinks, or his plans. No one has shown yet that god had... more
- That's what your programmers told you Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 9:27amothers disagree.
- uh...it's in plain writing (nm) Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:29am
- Writen by human authors Christopher Blackwell, Fri Feb 11 6:13pmFaith, And we know that humans are imperfect, not always truthful and have great imaginations for inventing stories,.
- Written by God Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:31pmAnd we know that God is perfect and that His Word is Holy and perfect....He does not let us down...: )
- Some disagree (nm) Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 9:38am
- It's not a matter of opinion... Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:53amTimothy 2:11–14 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then... more
- Adam was a wus, a boy and not a man Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 9:08pmFaith. If he was a man, he would have took responsibility for his own action and not tried to blame it on the woman. And of course remember the book was writen by men, its bias is obvious.
- lol...you really are Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:34pmclueless...you should really try to get a grip...it's almost inexcusable.
- *shrug* go tell it to those... Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 10:01amwho disagree with you. I think the Methodists have women pastors...go tell them they're full of it if you dare. Me, I couldn't care less since I'm not a Christian. In MY faith, the majority of clergy ... more
- so? Faith, Thu Feb 10 10:11amYou just prove my point and answer any questions as to how we can know the difference between a true Christian who follows God's Word and those who do not.
- I'm afraid you'd still get disagreement on that Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 10:15amfrom any of the numerous Christian denoms who DO have women pastors. That's just the way things are.
- so?? Faith, Thu Feb 10 10:24amNumerous so-called Christian denominations aren't any better of than the Catholic Church when it comes to apostasy.
- Nevertheless, they ARE the majority... Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 10:28amhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women Today, over half of all American Protestant denominations ordain women, but some restrict the official positions a woman can hold. For instance,... more
- I hate to keep saying "so?"...but Faith, Thu Feb 10 10:43amso? And there is nothing wrong with women going into seminary...but they cannot use their education as pastors. There are plenty of other ways to serve in the church. Matt 7:13-14 “Enter through the... more
- Maybe not in Baptist churches Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 12:08pmbut they do in others, whether you like it or not.
- again, not to keep at it, but Faith, Thu Feb 10 1:43pmSo?
- And after checking it out, even the Baptists... Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 12:15pmdo in SOME of their churches: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/Women-Ministers.htm As far as baptists are concerned, you would get several different answers. First of all, Baptists uphold the... more
- I only care about what the Bible says on the matter... Faith, Thu Feb 10 1:45pmanyone who ignores the clear biblical teaching, does so at their own peril..
- They don't appear to think they are Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 2:07pmdid you read the article at the link I posted?
- I know the Bible Faith, Thu Feb 10 2:38pmDoesn't matter what they think...
- It does to them Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 3:16pmNOBODY has the absolute truth---NOBODY.
- Well I think that you are wrong about that Faith, Thu Feb 10 4:33pmGod's Word is truth.
- Except it is man's word, not god's Christopher Blackwell, Fri Feb 11 6:21pmFaith isn't talking and we have people claiming to speak for him. That does not mean that they are however. Holy Books are interesting, but no one has ever proven that any of them was inspired by... more
- God has proven Himself Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:36pmthrough fulfilled prophecy..but I guess you keep missing that fact. You should venture on a journey and try to discover something new...
- God isn't speaking, men wrote the book. (nm) Christopher Blackwell, Fri Feb 11 6:22pm
- saying it again, doesn't make it so. (nm) Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:37pm
- No, because it IS so Truthteller, Sat Feb 12 10:03amGODS DON'T WRITE BOOKS. Mainly because gods have never been proven to exist. And that's the way it will stay until some god appears before the world and says differently.
- already happened! (nm) Faith, Sun Feb 13 8:41am
- A human being trying to pass himself off as a god... Truthteller, Sun Feb 13 11:01amdoesn't qualify.
- If a god ever says anything... Truthteller, Fri Feb 11 7:21amthat might be the case. But so far, no god ever has.
- Interesting questions and your sincerity should be respected Gvu, Thu Feb 10 6:53amso I will answer likewise as any devout Christian should. Sincerity, this woman may indeed have that attitude about her message but that doesn't mean it is the truth. Sin-cerity Pro 14:12 There is a... more
- lol.... Faith, Wed Feb 9 2:38pmSecular unbelieving scholars do not know what they are talking about......they don't have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Too bad! There are not many ways to interpret the Scriptures..there is only... more
- Faith may I aske you something? Trish, Wed Feb 9 3:23pmseriously? Do you think that "secular scholars" have no clue about history, linguistics, etc. What about people who spend their lives studying religion and find a conclusion contrary to you? And even ... more
- well said... (nm) donk, Thu Feb 10 5:51am
- VERY good questions greenman, Wed Feb 9 7:12pmAs always, Trish! ;)
- I think that uninspired scholars Faith, Wed Feb 9 3:36pmthose who attempt to understand God's Word without the Holy Spirit simply cannot. That's all. There are Christian conflicts because of Satan and his work...which is to do just that--deceive as many... more
- Unimspired scholars Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 9:20amFaith, Anyone that disagrees with your personal opinion.
- no..anyone who is not Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:27am...really a Christian....as evidenced by their disregard for what is written.
- Anyone that disagrees with your opinion, you mean. (nm) Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 9:10pm
- Again greenman, Wed Feb 9 7:15pm...what you're basically saying is "if you agree with my interpretation, that of a born-again Christian, you're 'inspired' like I am. If you DISAGREE with my interpretation, you're not." Aren't you?... more
- Well that's too bad Faith, Thu Feb 10 5:44am....if you don't like it. Yes, only born again Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit--not my words....God's Word.
- So they like to claim Christopher Blackwell, Fri Feb 11 6:24pmFaith, But no claim proves itself without evidence. So I will wait till you have some evidence.
- The evidence is in the conversion Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:40pmin the changed life....anyone who knows a born again Christian...cannot deny it.
- Nope....pretty sure it's your words greenman, Thu Feb 10 5:28pmYour words, your beliefs, based on other peoples' words. Doesn't make it the least bit true, sorry.
- Faith - you can't PROVE Trish, Wed Feb 9 4:41pmthe H.S. nor can you prove Satan - it's all a matter of FAITH. and while I understand your devotion, I do not understand your insistence that a "belief" equates to TRUTH - it simply isn't so. I know... more
- again, well said... donk, Thu Feb 10 5:58am"...that a "belief" equates to TRUTH - it simply isn't so." Might partially explain the problem some have with faith and science.
- faith is knowing something with confidence Faith, Thu Feb 10 6:04ameven though you can't prove it... You seem to be saying that nothing we *believe* by faith can be the truth. Sorry, Donk....but I can't find any support for that notion. Just because there are many... more
- Faith is believing without proof Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 9:08amFaith, Belief proves nothing, no matter how strong.
- faith is a sure confidence Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:14amthat what they believe in is the truth--even though they can't prove it to others. It requires evidences and confirmations...that without, there would be no faith.
- Faith is no such thing. You're redefining words to suit your Moraith, Thu Feb 10 6:26ampurpose again. There isn't a definition I've found that says faith is anything like knowing something with confidence. If it were known faith would be arbitrary.
- Precisely. Faith =/= knowledge. Poppet, Thu Feb 10 7:52amThere are people who seem to think it's okay to employ their own made-up lexicon. It's not only self-serving and disingenuous, it makes conversation difficult if not impossible, as if the parties... more
- Indeed. It's quite frustrating Moraith, Thu Feb 10 8:51amand gives off a Wonderland type atmosphere: 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
- sorry Moriath...but I answer to a higher power Faith, Thu Feb 10 6:40amFaith is what you call it only because you can't prove it. The more evidence there is to your belief, the stronger the faith...or confidence in that belief. Hebrews 11 Faith in Action... 1 Now faith... more
- You can't prove it either. Moraith, Thu Feb 10 7:37amIf you're going to use the same language as the rest of us, it is important that we use words with the common definition of those words to avoid confusion. If you are going to define words in ways... more
- again... Faith, Thu Feb 10 7:53amthe meaning of faith that i adhere to not only comes from God's Word but it is confirmed in every day living. Really., who actually believes that faith means a wishy washy blind hope? When someone... more
- None of what you just posted supports your original Moraith, Thu Feb 10 8:49amclaim that faith is knowing something with confidence. You can have a strong conviction, you can firmly believe and completely trust in that with which you have faith, but you cannot , by definition, ... more
- Maybe you can't.... Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:10amOr maybe you can't quite imagine it...but I don't put my faith in anything that i am not quite sure of...and although I may not be able to prove it to you...that doesn't mean I am not convicted.
- Surety or being convicted in your faith Moraith, Thu Feb 10 9:51amisn't the same as knowledge. I'm not trying to say that you aren't sure of your faith. I'm simply stating that surety isn't the same as knowing something to be true.
- again Moriath... Faith, Thu Feb 10 10:00amI am sure of my knowledge about God, for example. I can't prove He exists to you--But I have no doubts. I believe what is revealed in the Scriptures--which is chock-full-of knowledge. I can't prove... more
- We're getting off topic Moraith, Thu Feb 10 10:30amI don't expect you to prove your faith to me. I'm not even asking you to do so. I merely pointed out that your original definition of faith was wrong. You've even demonstrated that your were... more
- No definition can be wrong... Poppet, Thu Feb 10 10:55am...when someone just makes up the lexicon as they go along. Convenient, innit...? =P
- It is quite convenient Moraith, Thu Feb 10 10:56amI wish I could twist my brain about in such as way as to never be wrong about anything. It would make life simpler, don't you think?
- well we will just have to agree to disagree Faith, Thu Feb 10 10:47ambecause i believe that the definition found in the dictionary is much like the one found in God's Word. Maybe we are just talking past each other.
- Trish...where's the desperation? Faith, Thu Feb 10 5:41amI simply tell it like it is from a biblical perspective. You seem like the one bothered... I am not trying to prove anything. I know what is the truth and I am simply telling it as I am called to do. ... more
- You are different Faith Robert , Thu Feb 10 6:34amNot to speak for Trish who seems more than capable of doing it herself, but she seems to me to be stating beliefs formulated from experiences on both sides of the fence, whereas your beliefs are... more
- lol...you crack me up... Faith, Thu Feb 10 6:50amSo in your opinion...one needs always to remain completely open to all and any deception that's thrown their way? Sitting on the fence is better than having found the truth and then protecting it... more
- Hardly Robert , Thu Feb 10 7:10amMy opinion is... one should use their brains (confidently if they have any) to weigh historically sound research if they in fact are truth seeking. Presuppositions of said research being "deceptive", ... more
- I've already done that... Anonymous, Thu Feb 10 7:19amBut at some point Robert, you have to settle the matter..unless you haven't found the trth of course. Certainly keep looking. But when the day comes that God finally sees your sincerity and He... more
- Really!? Robert , Thu Feb 10 7:28amWhat was the kindergarden teacher trying to tell you? Ok, just kidding. Now as to Him revealing Himself to me----what was it you just said to Trish about "directly"?
- God revealed Himself to me Faith, Thu Feb 10 7:30amthrough His Word, Robert. I didn't experience some mystical apparition. Sorry to disappoint you.
- Except it is not his word Christopher Blackwell, Fri Feb 11 6:27pmFaith, Just what some human authrors put together and then claimed it was God's word.
- That's your misguided opinion.. Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:42pmnothing more... Those of us who have exprerienced rebirth and know Him through His Word would beg to differ with you greatly.
- oops that was me (nm) Faith, Thu Feb 10 7:20am
- Those who do not believe the Scripture- frank, Wed Feb 9 4:55pmor do not WANT to believe the Scripture do not put forth the effort to study ALL the context, look up parallel passages, or meditate on the different related passages that completely & correctly... more
- If that's true, Frank greenman, Wed Feb 9 7:17pm...it pretty much blows your "scholarship" in the area of evolutionary biology out of the water, doesn't it? :)
- Frank you know better Trish, Wed Feb 9 5:01pmI spent many years studying scripture in a fundamentalist setting. At that point in my life I truly believed but the more I studied, the more I researched the less credible claims became. So I... more
- Trish...directly? Anonymous, Thu Feb 10 5:49amSeriously? How can you know if it is really God speaking directly to you? It could be any number of deceiving spirits who mascarade as angels in white.... God gave His Word for foundation so that we... more
- Since no deity has ever written any book... Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 8:25amby default, scripture IS a "human invention." And as such is NOT inerrant or infallible. The people who DID write it CLAIMED to take inspiration from "god," but it could have been any number of... more
- You are just wrong Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:18amThe Holy Scriptures are the work of God only. Sorry. He confirms His full inspiration with fulfilled prophecy. No other holy book or writings outside of the Old and New Testaments can make the same... more
- I'm sorry too---I disagree Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 9:27amgods don't write books. You can ignore that, but the overwhelming proofs say you are wrong.
- too? Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:34amDid I say I was sorry? Man cannot predict with 100% accuracy. Therefore God wrote the Bible. These Scriptures make this claim for themselves and prove it through their words--even if you can't see... more
- Not trying to convince you of anything... Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 9:40amother than the fact that not everybody agrees with you. Yes, you DID say you were sorry...check back.
- I did check... Faith, Thu Feb 10 10:05amnot in this section did I say anything about being sorry...maybe elsewhere I did, but that has nothing to do with this thread. It doesn't matter. What does whether anyone else agrees with me have to... more
- Well, that's all you need Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 10:30amI dunno about you, but I really don't care what other people think about my religion or anything else.
- I don't care and I do... Faith, Thu Feb 10 10:50amI am called to try and share my faith, so I do it. I do get extremely bothered with lies and misinformation that gets thrown around regarding my faith and its source--God's Holy written Word.
- One person's lie is another's truth Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 12:09pmthat is why you get the disunity in Christianity.
- no...the disunity comes from deception Faith, Thu Feb 10 1:52pmwhere certain so-called believers are easily led away from what is written and prefer instead to entertain their own desires. There is no disunity in the true body--that's all that really matters.
- You can probably blame the pastors... Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 2:11pmwho, after all, put their own spin into what their scripture says. Who can really say what the "true body" of Christianity really is any more? I don't think any of the denominations come very close... more
- Hi Truthteller Robert , Fri Feb 11 6:31amThe historical Jesus, who actually walked on Earth, never had any denomination in mind because he never had the formation of a religion in mind. What he did have in mind, was preparing people for... more
- context is everything... Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:44pmYou completely miss just "who" this generation really is.... Too bad for you : (
- who indeed Robert , Sat Feb 12 5:56am"those who are standing before me". Tell us how you reconcile saying in one breath that the Bible speaks in plain language yet when faced with a conundrum you abandon such by pulling the context... more
- we've already been through this Faith, Sun Feb 13 8:42amit was extensive..what? You can't remeber? See? That's why it is a huge waste of time.
- You are right.... Faith, Thu Feb 10 3:05pmNot one religion or denomination in particular is the true church or body of Jesus Christ. But then again, it never has been. From the very begining, deception, false teachers and unbelievers have... more
- oops that was me (nm) Faith, Thu Feb 10 5:59am
- hit.nail.head, Faith shadow, Wed Feb 9 3:58pmTo the 'scholastics' the Bible is often just another book and is treated as just another book. That approach is limited by the criteria that are used when researching 'just another book'. A lot can... more
- if Christians were more honest trish, Wed Feb 9 4:43pmthey'd openly admit that they DISAGREE on scripture and therefore are just as much in the dark as people like you try to claim of "non-believers" If non believers are fibbing so are YOU.
- There is a difference Faith, Thu Feb 10 6:11ambetween disagreeing on secondary aspects of God's Word such as the timing of things...ya know, when will the rapture occur--before during or after Tribulation...? What/who is the apostate religion... more
- You're just plain wrong, Trish. Shadow, Wed Feb 9 5:33pmThere is absolutely no correlation between what the non-believers disagree on and the differences among believers. And Christians are not in the dark, no matter how much you'd like to think so. As... more
- Unbelievable arrogance greenman, Wed Feb 9 7:16pmI'd thought even you didn't come up to Faith in that particular area, but I was wrong - if anything, you're MORE arrogant and self-righteous even than she is!
- arrogance? Or confidence...? Faith, Thu Feb 10 6:14amI know it rubs you the wrong way....but that's just too bad, greenman. It doesn't give you the right to be insulting and to make this personal. In fact, I believe it is against the board rules to... more
- Confident arrogance is still arrogance greenman, Thu Feb 10 5:30pm...but your kind is probably the insecure kind, which you use to bolster your shaky beliefs. Whistling past the graveyard, as it were...:)
- The only insecure kind Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:49pmis obviously you : ( You are the one with the "shaky" beliefs..if you have any beliefs at all that is...you seem only to be able to attack mine. That tells us alot!!
- LOL Wot a bunch of frank, Wed Feb 9 2:19pmlies! The Bible requires Pastors to be MEN. This is just another female wannabe tickling the ears of a bunch of weak or false Christians-especially homosexuals. Leave it to an enemy of Christianity... more
- I don't dislike christianity Gateway, Wed Feb 9 8:23pmwhy some of my best friends are christian.
- More unsupported claims Christopher Blackwell , Wed Feb 9 7:11pmFrank, More claims by you about people who disagree with you which are unsupported. I believe that is called lying by some.
- another rule breaking poster in this thread Faith, Thu Feb 10 6:22amWe are not to call anyone a liar, Christopher...Ken's rule...not mine. The only person making unsupported claims is the author of this article that we are all debating.
- You're not exactly "debating," are you? greenman, Thu Feb 10 5:31pmMore like demanding, insisting, and oh yeah, whining...:)
- And yet another rule Robert , Thu Feb 10 6:51amis to not bring a closed mind to the board----oops!
- You know therer is a thing to be said about an open mind, Gvu, Thu Feb 10 7:16amopened like a sewer. Not accusing you of having one, but that it can a negative; a detriment to the soul. Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as... more
- Sewers Robert , Thu Feb 10 8:31amAn open sewer at least gets fresh air---a closed one stinks to the high heavens.
- ?stinks to the high heavens??, anyway I was thinking of an Gvu, Thu Feb 10 8:45amopenness that stays clean like a trout stream, that won't be a detriment to one's soul. Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and... more
- You confuse my assurance Faith, Thu Feb 10 6:55amand confidence that I have found the truth with closedmindedness. Ya know, Robert...at some point in time, you have to find what you are looking for. I have. No need to be led astray at this point.... more
- Interesting Robert , Thu Feb 10 7:22amNow Faith, if you will, please share with us the multiple sources of your assurance/confidence----remember now, you have already mentioned your multifaceted yet nonspecific "journey". Please feel... more
- Not playing the game Robert Faith, Thu Feb 10 7:27amMy born-again conversion was very real, something I experienced after years of seeking God in all the wrong places. The one thin that was true of me is that I wanted God wherever it was that He was... more
- Specific as mud-many thanks. Robert , Thu Feb 10 7:40amNot playing the game----or, not facing the music as to not having a source other than your literal/devotional only consumption!? Pretty obvious to both your ilk and others here. How bout just 4 or 5... more
- Those who know me Faith, Thu Feb 10 8:02amand have posted in depth with me over the years know very well that I am an informed believer. However, it isn't by my study or research that I became born-again. My study and research came... more
- Finally! Thanks, Faith Robert , Thu Feb 10 8:27amWow, did that have to be so painful? We finally know the truth----your defensive "journey" statement earlier in this thread to Trish was just Toro dung. And your "assurance/confidence" in fact only... more
- you are sounding a bit desperate Robert..why? Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:22amI've been posting for almost 12 years..so, you are a little behind. Just remember to put on the armor of God when you come to find the answers you are still looking for., so thatr you can start to... more
- huh? Desparate? r u serious? Robert , Thu Feb 10 10:08amIf you comprehend my posts in this thread as "desparate" in any way whatsoever, then maybe my suggestions to you to read, study, and research may be off base. I do however appreciate you finally... more
- certainly desperate if you need to claim Faith, Thu Feb 10 10:18amvictory as you did with the false statement that I admitted that I am "no well read/researched poster" and that now that I have have "fessed up" I will "no longer claim to be." What utter ridiculous... more
- Zero need to claim Robert , Thu Feb 10 11:19amanything of the sort. The only need here is one of intellectual honesty. You claimed a multifaceted "journey" of study etc. was the source of your assurances/confidence. I challenged you to share... more
- I was clear that I am not interested in games Faith, Thu Feb 10 11:36amI also did not say i didn't have the time, I said that it would take the kind of time that I wasn't willing to give--for obvious reasons. The bottom line Robert, is that rebirth is not the result of... more
- Leave it to patriarchal Frank greenman, Wed Feb 9 6:49pm....to mock others, mock their faith, attack women's rights, and launch personal attacks on those with a different opinion. Yes, Frank's a TRUE Christian...just ask him...:)
- Re: LOL Wot a bunch of Anonymous, Wed Feb 9 2:33pmhttp://ucmpage.org/articles/facts_about_homosexuality.html ================================================ Article --------------------------------------------------------------------------------... more
- narth is hardly an unbiased source sym, Wed Feb 9 2:58pmand for the rest of the rant in this thread - shame on you.
- Shame on you for not letting the frank, Wed Feb 9 4:47pmprinted word spoeak to you-whether it is Scripture, or something like Narth & its facts & figures.
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