Uru HammerThat Depends...Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:33am126.96.36.199It depends on the expectations one has when going into the marriage, how those expectations evolve, the reality of the marriage, and the motivations for the divorce.
Is a train station a "failure" of the railroad? No. It is a departure point.
All of that was to argue the point philosophically. In my own life, my divorce did mark the failure of my first marriage to go until death did us part. But part of coming to a more mature understanding of marriage, divorce, and relationships is to realize that the real failure is in trying to impose expectations like that when you're in your mid twenties.
I now favor a model of marriage which is a contract that automatically expires after 5 years. It can be renewed for another 5 years at that point, or abandoned. In fact, why not allow any block of time?
Heck, divorce can be a success - a positive step for two people who need change. Overcoming all the pressures to stay together, and moving on.
- Not sure what divorce is if not failure... donk, Thu Feb 10 4:01amI mean, wrap it any way you want, but it still reflects a failure.
- Why is divorce so damned expensive? greenman, Thu Feb 10 5:43pmBecause it's worth it....:)
- It is also the breaking of a covenant. RthB, Thu Feb 10 4:37pmI suppose that in this degenerate culture (or gang of mini-cultures) the word "marriage" has no meaning nor significance, therefore, if it feels bad, divorce and move on to the next piss poor... more
- A bad convenant greenman, Thu Feb 10 5:44pmMaking a "forever" promise is setting yourself up for failure and misery. Interestingly, one of the highest rates of divorce in this country is among born-again Christians. Hmmmm....:)
- You are correct. RthB, Fri Feb 11 11:13amThey wander in the desert like the Jews of Old, crumbling, coveting and making golded caves. They all perish in the desert. Their lives are disasters. RthB
- The failure was i getting married in the first place Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 8:56amdonk, Bad marriages end in divorce. If you get married for the wrong reason or to the wrong person , or you want everything your way, then divorce is guaranteed. Few people getting married have known ... more
- I agree in general with what you say shadow, Fri Feb 11 1:39pmbut I take exception with your final remark: "Getting married for the wrong reasons guarantees a bad marriage and then all you can do is start over, hopefully before you come to hate and detest each... more
- Reminds me of a scene from one of my favorite movies. SES, Thu Feb 10 11:18amSkip ahead to 1:30: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wQyDiC7e-o
- I can see why. (nm) Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 8:45pm
- Not from the individual view cc, Thu Feb 10 7:59amIn terms of social consciousness for the entire group, yes. But, in terms of the individual, there is no way of knowing what any individual expects when they get married. However, when we read about... more
- comment... donk, Thu Feb 10 8:55amWould you agree that marriage reflects an expectation to... stay married? "For better or worse?" Now, there's no doubt the institution of marriage wants and needs revisiting, but in its present form, ... more
- I think it certainly used to be pretty black and white... Sprout, Thu Feb 10 4:26pmI think that it certainly used to be that the expectation that it WOULD be for life. For better or worse REGARDLESS of how much better or how much worse it got... I think that is gradually changing.... more
- It is impossible to determine what individuals really think cc, Thu Feb 10 4:19pmBeginning with oath of office, many, if not most individuals "go along to get along" with the prevailing standard vows. They know they will never be "called to account" on the matter, and that, over... more
- I read where this marriage counselor had FIVE divorces David F Mayer, Thu Feb 10 7:56amin her past. She claimed that each of the marriages was not failure, but a "learning experience". I suppose that she has learned something, but I would not hire her as a marriage counselor. David F... more
- That Depends... Uru Hammer, Thu Feb 10 6:33am
- In Iran, you can have marriage for a single night. David F Mayer, Thu Feb 10 8:00amOf course, it is only available to the rich and powerful clerics who run the country. They say, since it is legal (which it is because they wrote the laws), it does not have a bad effect on the girls ... more
- Not quite cc, Fri Feb 11 5:26amRent-a-wife is available to any male who pays off the mullah pimp.
- Interesting idea. A 5-year expiration date. SES, Thu Feb 10 6:56amMy only issue with that is that it ignores the "Child Factor". In my opinion, when two married people decide to bring a child into the world, they owe it to that child to provide him or her with a... more
- That was once legal in Russia. (nm) David F Mayer, Thu Feb 10 5:13pm
- I happen to agree with U in this case; so what happen with U sT, Thu Feb 10 10:16am? If my post had not been BURNED, I would have explored this further with U when I found time to get back to it. U have children; it affects them at ANY age. My father, who jumped the Rhine in WWII,... more
- Having Kids Would Make... Uru Hammer, Thu Feb 10 6:59am...a 5 year expiration more complicated, but not impossible. After all, some people have divorces that work out just fine. I think that the expiration could actually work better than a divorce in... more
- They don't dwell on it in public cc, Thu Feb 10 8:14amBut, I found when looking at biographies for my Music Video Links that many filthy rich celebrities have children without bothering to get married. In some cases they have been subjects of the... more
- I disagree. SES, Thu Feb 10 7:12amI think a Divorce that involves young children (0 to, say, 14 or 15) does harm to the children. I know that people will say "It was better for the marriage to end than for the kids to see their... more
- I disagree. Moraith, Thu Feb 10 5:41pmEven if there are children involved, sometimes it *is* better that the parents divorce rather than sticking it out until the kids are grown. Very few adults can be mature enough, if they want out of... more
- Some Agreement... Uru Hammer, Thu Feb 10 7:20amYes, parents should focus on the well-being of the child, and on making sure the child gets what the child needs, but that can be done within the framework of a divorce. It just takes more effort. It ... more
- we don't disagree... donk, Thu Feb 10 6:43ameven to include the "renewable contract" idea, but my question was a serious attempt to understand a condition in which divorce wouldn't be a failure of some extent.
- I have a friend who... SES, Thu Feb 10 6:59am...got married at around 23 or 24. After 3 or 4 years (there were no children from the marriage) they agreed that it had been a mistake, and they got a "no-fault" divorce, and each went on the merry... more
- If they made vows that included Moraith, Thu Feb 10 7:34ama til death do us part promise and they divorced, the marriage is a failure because they are still living and have parted. That your friend (and many other people, as well) realized that the marriage ... more
- Only if one limits ones self to that somewhat antiquated Sprout, Thu Feb 10 4:20pmideal that the ONLY possible definer of a successful marriage is a lifelong committment. I think if they married with good intentions, and lived together happily for at least a time, and parted... more
- I agree with most of your thoughts. Moraith, Thu Feb 10 5:30pmMarriage doesn't need to be a lifelong commitment. When I officiate a wedding, I never include the phrasing til death do you part. I say for as long as your love shall last. I do this, because even... more
- I agree with you... Sprout, Thu Feb 10 5:34pmI think that IF the couple BOTH really do want a lifelong partnership, then they are going to have to work at it because we all change throughout our lives. And life throws other changes at us as... more
- You make some really good points. Moraith, Thu Feb 10 6:05pmI've discovered that, at least among my married friends, my marriage is a bit of an anomaly. My husband and I are intent on having a lifelong partnership. We've had our share of hurdles, especially... more
- Maybe a bit of miscommunication.... Sprout, Thu Feb 10 7:09pmI think most couples WANT that ideal fairy tale marriage where they are still chasing each other lustfully around the house in their wheelchairs 60 years after the ceremony... I think most folks... more
- Fair enough Moraith, Thu Feb 10 8:31pmI definitely see and understand your point. I'm beginning to think that where we disagree is in semantics.
- The Marriage was a failure, the Divorce was a success. SES, Thu Feb 10 7:39amIf that's not what I said, that's what I meant.
- Ok thanks for the clarification :) (nm) Moraith, Thu Feb 10 7:44am
- While it may represent a failure to achieve Sprout, Thu Feb 10 6:28amgoals set years prior, it may be a current success in that the benefits may FAR outweigh the costs.
- In my opinion, Divorce is... SES, Thu Feb 10 6:46am...always a failure of some kind, and is only SOMETIMES also a success. My In-Laws have been MISERABLE for at LEAST 30 years. Since they're Catholic, and since they grew up in an era when people... more
- To a certain degree yes.... Sprout, Thu Feb 10 4:17pmI think we all know folks who, when they got married, their friends and family all said, "This is a horrible mistake." and turned out to be right... Now, I don't pretend that those are more than a... more
- So You're Saying That Marriage Can Be A Failure, Too... Uru Hammer, Thu Feb 10 6:58amI think you hit on the central idea. Does the thing have a positive impact? Then it is a success. A negative impact? A failure. This works for marriage and divorce. Uru
- Absolutely Moraith, Thu Feb 10 6:20amDivorce reflects a failed marriage. Are you trying to bring out a specific point that perhaps I'm missing?
- My question was prompted... donk, Thu Feb 10 6:45amby the deletion of part of a thread. Could be, it goes without saying that divorce reflects failure, but still, it is the truth to say so.
- I think there may come a day when society Sprout, Thu Feb 10 6:29amrecognizes how impractical the ideal of life long arrangements like conventional marriage are. And if that day comes, folks will start establishing more reasonable goals for their relationships.
- It *can* be impractical, but it doesn't *have* to be. Moraith, Thu Feb 10 7:30amIt really depends on the couple and how they view their marriage. I think once people begin to better realize that they are the writers of the story of their lives, including marriage, they may have... more
- A lot more than that.... Sprout, Thu Feb 10 4:14pmLifelong relationships are dependent on a lot more than just how they view marriage. MANY couples marry BELIEVING very strongly that they will be happily together for the rest of their live and... more
- I agree with the majority of what you're saying. Moraith, Thu Feb 10 5:22pmExcept that I don't believe that the couples who CAN have a long and happy marriage DON'T have to be the exception. I think that too many people go into marriage with unrealistic expectations. They... more
- Once they have seen Paris... how will you keep them on the Sprout, Thu Feb 10 5:31pmfarm... Life overall, society as a whole, has changed Moraith. Folks have seen that they CAN have a lot better than staying in a loveless marriage because that is what teh church says that they MUST... more
- That would require several major paradigm shifts. PureStevil, Thu Feb 10 6:59am1. There would have to be a dramatic change in how caretaker and financial responsibility for the upbringing of young occurs. 2. I don't see how the above could occur unless there were some radically ... more
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