Uru HammerFaith - Abortion, Moving It Forward...Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:09am22.214.171.124First, to correct an error you made. Fetuses do not have the capability to experience pain in the 12th week of gestation.
Try the 29th week.
How do scientists know this? Because they know when the physiological structure (the physical component parts) exist that would make the fetus capable of experiencing pain.
And that gets back to the point you do not seem to understand.
Likewise, without the physical structure of the nervous system developed to the point where a mind is possible, there is no mind present in the fetus.
If there isn't a sufficiently developed brain, there is no mind.
If there is no mind, there is no person. It does not matter that the fetus has a unique genetic signature. It does not matter that the fetus is alive. All that matters, in terms of whether or not the fetus is a person, is whether or not the fetus can even HAVE a mind of its own.
Now, my own personal views on abortion are that abortions in the third trimesters should definitely be more strictly regulated than abortions in the first two trimesters. But that view is based on the facts available.
Your view that a fertilized egg is a person is a religious view. One that is not supported by the evidence. You are welcome to have that view, but it is ridiculous for you to think you have the moral standing to force others to adopt that view and to legislate based on that view. It is a religious belief, and we have freedom of religion here.
- One of the problems with your argument shadow, Thu Feb 10 1:28pmis that it is only a scientific argument, and by definition is amoral. Science alone cannot define what is good or bad behavior. If you're unable to apply it to the issue of what a fetus is, apply it ... more
- The judgemental error is cc, Fri Feb 11 8:53pm...in applying tunnel vision to see only apparent sociology issues while completely ignoring the ruthless economic facts. Civilization is in a desperate race against time to bring world population... more
- I Appreciate Your Response... Uru Hammer, Thu Feb 10 5:29pmI see what you're saying, but I look at it like this: With nuclear power, there is a large area of common ground for almost everybody. Nobody wants nuclear waste to simply be discarded in landfills,... more
- and, the disposition... donk, Thu Feb 10 6:27pmof a fetus is nobody's business except the owner of the body in which it is.
- Translation greenman, Thu Feb 10 5:14pm'MY morality is the only correct kind, and it says you can't have abortions ever or God will hate you and send you to Hell!' Yeah, we know...
- Abortion is still ... Mondo Fuego™, Thu Feb 10 10:53am... the killing of an individual who is developing. Scientific, medical and legal terms do not alter or mitigate the Ten Commandments: "Thou Shalt Not Kill". This is nothing but a Hammerism: "If... more
- "Thou shalt not kill" Bob the builder, Fri Feb 11 2:09amSo you don't approve of the death penalty and you're a vegetarian, then?
- But I try to avoid ... Mondo Fuego™, Fri Feb 11 8:57am... eating live bacteria, viruses and fungi (except edible 'shrooms). And, nobody ever asked me to approve of the death penalty ... when was the vote? ;)
- and wars and drunk driving... donk - laughing, Fri Feb 11 5:47amand about a million other things that kill. Mostly, it is about interfering in the business of others...
- Gee but it doesn't affect our Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 6:53pmMondo Fuego™ of over a hundred thousand humans in iraq and Afghanistan. Ecept that human life does not move seamlessly. Most sperm and eggs, never get together and most fertilized eggs do not result... more
- Surely ... Mondo Fuego™, Thu Feb 10 8:37pm... you had a relevant point ... I seem to vagurly recall that we were not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan, or the sperm and eggs which never get together, or how long we would live if left to... more
- Not all killing is murder Christopher Blackwell, Fri Feb 11 5:39pmMondo Fuego™ So we do pick and choose which ones we get all upset about.
- Correcting You. Uru Hammer, Thu Feb 10 5:33pmI do not argue about when life begins. Life is continuous. That is not the issue. As I pointed out before, tumors are alive, yet we kill them. No, tumors are not fetuses, and I am not saying that... more
- Ultimately, it all boils down to ... Mondo Fuego™, Thu Feb 10 8:33pm... beliefs. Mine are correct ... yours are misguided ... and you can't prove otherwise. Heh heh heh
- That's As May Be - After All, You Are Ancient And Wise... Uru Hammer, Fri Feb 11 6:05am...but thankfully, we are protected from each others' beliefs. Uru
- "Individuals" have been born greenman, Thu Feb 10 5:15pmFetuses simply are not "individuals" yet. Nor are they "babies," as anti-choice emotional blackmailers like to pretend.
- Very few could be called human cc, Thu Feb 10 11:59am...before about age 40 years.
- Unless, of course ... Mondo Fuego™, Fri Feb 11 9:45am... they are really pretty:
- I think the fetus gradually develops into a living human. Ken C, Thu Feb 10 11:42amI don't see things as only black/white.
- In my opinion... SES, Thu Feb 10 11:34am...I have no issue with aborting a newly-fertilized human egg. At that point, it's roughly the size of the period at the end of this sentence. In my opinion, a fully-formed full-term fetus should NOT ... more
- You are entitled to your opinion ... Mondo Fuego™, Thu Feb 10 5:19pm... you could potentially have a problem if your opinion does not pass the muster with a higher authority. Just my opinion, of course.
- What difference would it make? SES, Fri Feb 11 8:17amIf I've never had an abortion, and never tried to convince anyone to HAVE an abortion, how would that make any difference to a "higher authority"? Would I get sent to hell for my OPINION?
- No ... Mondo Fuego™, Fri Feb 11 9:50am... it would be just your OPINION that goes to hell ... in a handbasket. :) Heh heh heh
- Piece of cake. PureStevil, Thu Feb 10 11:09amThe picosecond that the fetus becomes a human being is the same one in which it qualifies as a dependent on the federal income tax form. If you want to move that status of human being to an earlier... more
- There ya go ... Mondo Fuego™, Thu Feb 10 5:16pm... with another legal definition. Tax laws change all the time ... The Ten Commandments don't. Oh, and good luck with that. :)
- Yep. Legal. And that's how it must stay. PureStevil, Fri Feb 11 6:38amAbortion must remain legal. Whether it's the right or wrong thing to do is something that belongs to the individual. Oh, and those "commandments" do change from time to time too. :-)... more
- LOL @ You & The Ten Commandments. Uru Hammer, Thu Feb 10 5:42pmIs this Sparta? NO! This is America. Freedom of religion. You are welcome to hold your beliefs on abortion. Just don't think you can force them on others. Uru
- Why do you think I am ... Mondo Fuego™, Thu Feb 10 8:43pm... trying to force my beliefs about abortion on others? ... how could I, when you are so busy trying to force your beliefs about abortion on everyone? Sheesh! But, you see, not everyone is buying... more
- Not everyone follows or cares about the 10 commandments Truthteller, Fri Feb 11 7:18amyou DO understand that, right? Though if you did, it would seem that you'd have better sense than to continue bringing it up.
- Not much different than ... Mondo Fuego™, Fri Feb 11 9:48am... bringing up the same old erroneous rationalizations about abortion, huh? The topic has been beaten to death over the years, and nobody's view has changed one iota .
- Face it Uru, some people have it easy... Glenn, Thu Feb 10 8:22am...they can't believe that some women's lives could be hard enough that they wouldn't ever WANT to be mothers, or that so much of what is wrong with this world is caused by the multitudes of people... more
- justifying killing unborn babies Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:06amunder the premise that they are better off dead is so disturbing i can't believe that you don't hear yourselves. Having a baby is not all that hard and they can always give the baby up for adoption... more
- always more satisfying to kill.... donkl, Fri Feb 11 5:48ambabies after they are born.
- no amount of justifying it Faith, Fri Feb 11 12:09pmmakes killing babies okay at any point.....
- No need to justify it. Christopher Blackwell, Fri Feb 11 5:48pmFaith As we seen no need to justify all the people that we kill in our on going wars. Most of the people killed in war are civilians not combatants. That is true no matter which people start a war.
- lol...more justifying? Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:11pmIt is really amazing the gymnastics you will go through to try and make it seem like killing unborn babies is just the right and more noble thing to do...
- Your attmepts at guilt trips don't work Christopher Blackwell, Sun Feb 13 4:18pmFaith, Try your guilt trips on someone else. Abortions don't bother me at all an I am only responsibile for what i do, not for what anyone else decide too. So I leave each person to their own moral... more
- I let people handle theri own moral questions. Christopher Blackwell, Sun Feb 13 4:13pmFaith, I just let others make their own moral decisions.Then we can leave up to gods or goddesses to figure out what they think about it. Non of them have bothered giving us their opinion in a very... more
- How generous you are at runnng other people's lives Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 6:45pmFaith, Again a baby is a born person. Period. As for people who can't have babies, apparently God does not want them to to be parents. There are other ways to indulge in parenting without having... more
- lol..gee thanks for that enlightment Faith, Fri Feb 11 12:11pmI am surprised at such wisdom...coming from a man who at the same time thinks its fine to slaughter the unborn in order to be more responsible.
- Now that is an amazing conclusion Christopher Blackwell, Fri Feb 11 5:56pmFaith, You do jump to conclusions to justify your opnions. No I just don't start worrying about people until after they are born. If we can't handle the problems of people already here it is silly to ... more
- worry? Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:09pmNo...worry isn't the issue...you are suggesting that it is better to kill these babies, rather than have to worry about them..................disgusting.
- another one of your fase conclusions Christopher Blackwell, Sun Feb 13 4:21pmFaith, Go invent another straw man, that one does not work.
- Here it comes again greenman, Thu Feb 10 5:18pm...break out the violins, everyone...
- Childbirth bonds mother and child... Glenn, Thu Feb 10 12:48pm...which is why rape was always a integral part of any aggression against a society or an individual woman! Call it biological slavery...once you got her pregnant, she was yours for life 8^(
- unfortunately Faith this returns me to the previous question sym, Thu Feb 10 9:51amWhat do people who are anti-abortion plan to do for all the LIVING children on this planet already without proper homes? What are you going to do for those people who choose to keep a baby only to... more
- Christian charities Faith, Thu Feb 10 10:09amare innumerous......these women have options. Abortion should not be one of them. And adoption is always an option when all else fails and women still wind-up pregnant. No baby is better off dead... more
- No where near enough to hanlde the problem Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 7:02pmFaith, If Christian Charities were able to handle these problems they would. but the fact is they are not nearly able to handle the load, which is why the government is forced to step in. Back in the ... more
- I think you make stuff up... Faith, Fri Feb 11 12:16pmThe answer is still "not" to kill them...but maybe we should go after those greedy business people who made it impossible to afford to adopt a child or a baby. It shouldn't cost a young couple 50,000 ... more
- Nope, just study different stuff Christopher Blackwell, Fri Feb 11 5:45pmFaith, Maybe we should tell people that can't have babies, tough luck. God has decided you can do without. But as I said, there is no right to life, and never has been. Not in nature and not from... more
- Really? Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:14pmSo how do you then justify killing the mbabies god has given to those who are simply unapreciative? Shouldn't we be telling them that oh well...tough luck, God has decided you will not do without... more
- adoption obviously always isn't an option sym, Thu Feb 10 10:52amor there wouldn't be homeless children would there?
- most of the "homeless" children Faith, Thu Feb 10 11:12amare part of a family that is homeless. Some of these families are not willing to give up their children. This is a different issue and it has nothing to do with the topic of abortion. There are... more
- and what about the older kids still without a sym, Thu Feb 10 12:51pmfamily - its ok to overlook them just to have another baby in the world? how about the babies people don't want because their high maintenance and challenged - oh, do bring those into the world and... more
- One really has nothing to do with the other..sorry Faith, Thu Feb 10 1:38pmNice try, but all I can see here is more attempts at justifying killing unborn babies...as if that is going to solve the other problems you bring up. Those older kids are not getting overlooked... more
- Good point, Sym... Truthteller, Thu Feb 10 10:06am"you'll encourage them to have one more and bump up the amount they receive in aid without having to lift a finger looking for work?" Bingo. Repubs want to have it both ways, it seems. On one hand,... more
- I don't think its a political thing so much sym, Thu Feb 10 10:54amas a HUMAN thing - they are so wrapped up in a belief system that they cannot see what a decision like reversing a woman's righ to abortion could (and would) eventually do to this nation. Shudder.
- the real time to shudder Faith, Thu Feb 10 1:56pmwould be when we as a nation start to actually believe that in order to save life, we must first kill the unborn off.
- Well better birth control would help immensely Christopher Blackwell, Fri Feb 11 5:59pmFaith, But then the anti abortion crowd is against birth control as well. Yes I do read the stuff that they send out.
- Also scientific sexual education Christopher Blackwell, Fri Feb 11 6:02pmFaith, Less need for abortions when kids get scientific sex education. The highest birth and abortion rates are in districts that just teach no sex.
- waste of time... Faith, Thu Feb 10 7:32amnot interested anymore.. Life starts at conception no matter how hard you try to twist that basic fact. Done...the other thread was extensive.
- True, dat greenman, Sun Feb 13 6:04pmArguing with a brick wall usually is...
- Life? Uru Hammer, Thu Feb 10 8:54amTumors have life. Life is not the issue. If someone ripped your brain out, but medical machines kept your body alive, would YOU still be there? Answer that. Uru
- that again? Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:01amYou must think it is a good comparison...a baby is like a tumor..
- He does that ... Mondo Fuego™, Thu Feb 10 8:46pm... all the time. He is not really good with analogies.
- Just Answer The Question... Uru Hammer, Thu Feb 10 9:37amQ. If someone ripped your brain out, but machines kept your body alive, would YOU still be there? * * * As for the comparison, it is the perfect comparison. My point is to demonstrate that life is... more
- what a dumb question... Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:40amif someone kills someone by ripping their brain out then no, they aren't still living! Your point being???????
- I beg to differ on that one ... Mondo Fuego™, Fri Feb 11 9:52am... Hammer's brain has been ripped out, and he's still alive and posting the same old litany of abortion and homosexuality. LOL
- You Changed The Question - Why? Afraid? Uru Hammer, Thu Feb 10 9:44amAnswer the question as asked. If your brain is removed, but machines keep your body alive, are YOU still present? Uru
- you are avoiding the simple answer Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:56amif someone's brain is removed..have they not been killed? Obviously yes, because they need a machine to keep them alive. This is not the case with a fetus...it's brain, while not completely... more
- You Avoided The Question Again... Uru Hammer, Thu Feb 10 5:37pmAnd it is obvious why. The question illustrates that you don't hold to your own point. It is not about life. It is about sentience, consciousness, personhood. The mother of the fetus is the machine... more
- Sorry Hammer... Faith, Fri Feb 11 12:21pmBut a baby whose brain is not fully debeloped yet, cannot be compared to a person whose brain is missing. It is not justifiable to kill anyone....whether you are ripping their brains out or aborting... more
- Actually, Yes, The Comparison Is Apt... Uru Hammer, Fri Feb 11 1:14pmno brain = no mind = no person no person = no moral issue with terminating the fetus Uru Oh, and by the way, a machine keeping a person alive who does not have a brain to do it for themselves, and a... more
- The difference.. Faith, Fri Feb 11 7:19pmA fetus does have a brain......however small and underdeveloped it may be..it will grow and become fully formed unless you kill-it-off. Same cannot be said of someone whose brain has already been... more
- All together now... History (;-), Thu Feb 10 8:50amhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8 [Monty Python at their best]
- In your opinion. (nm) Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 8:39am
- Christopher..can you stop stating the obvious? Faith, Thu Feb 10 8:59amAll any of us are doing here is offering our opinions...or the opinions of our preference. Sheesh!
- Stop trying to pass opinion for fact. Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 7:09pmFaith every thing you say here is opinion, including what you claim god says. Since god does not choose to speak for himself, all that we have are various people's opinion as to what he would want.... more
- Which is your opinion...nothing more. KR, Thu Feb 10 8:28amThe facts are not on your side.
- Lol...the only fact that matters is on my side Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:00amThe fetus is alive...
- So is a tumor. Christopher Blackwell, Thu Feb 10 7:13pmFiath, Now the real question about being alive is when anything becomes self aware.At teh stage most fetuses get aborted there is no evidence that they are self aware. It is not until we are born and ... more
- So that is your ONLY criteria? KR, Thu Feb 10 9:42amCancer cells are also alive. So is foot fungus. You aren't really making any sort of argument...or at least not a logical one.
- So? Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:58amWhat does that have to do with anything. You don't have to abort cancer to prevent it from growing into an inconvenient baby..
- Wrong - life starts cc, Thu Feb 10 7:51am...when the priest LOOKS at the under-age female with lust in his heart...
- I'm not Catholic... Faith, Thu Feb 10 7:57amSo you can't bother me..as much as you try to. You are a disrespectful person.
- It should be a felony cc, Thu Feb 10 8:03am...for any person to prevent all female egs from being fertilized by every male sperm. Why? Because humans could really pile on top of one another and head out to the stars at the speed of light.
- whatifs don't count... Faith, Thu Feb 10 8:06amOnly those who truly were conceived matter. You can't say that because so many possible conceptions didn't happen, that those that did don't matter and are disposable. That is just another attempt at ... more
- I am just tring to be fair and look cc, Thu Feb 10 8:21am...at the situation from all POV. For example, when we lived in Massachusetts many years ago we were forced to drive over the border to Connecticut to buy condoms. My point in revealing this little... more
- ??....ntr (nm) Faith, Thu Feb 10 9:08am
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