KevinYour question doesn't even compute.Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:55am188.8.131.52The way you frame it already assumes an answer. You don't think holy books are holy? I would ask: What do you mean by Holy Book? What do you think holy means?
Also, you are looking for "evidence of God". This demonstrates you are looking in the wrong direction. Contemporary uses of the phrase -- "evidence of God" means something physical and empirical. But by definition -- what is intended by God in most religious traditions (especially in the West) is not available to physical examination.
"It is clear that a god only reveals itself in some of the human minds." The previous sentence is your quote. But again -- it assumes much. How is that sentence clear? It assumes a definition of God that the traditions don't assume.
The real problem here is assumption. Based on my interactions with you on this board and seeing how you respond to others, you assume much.
The issue is one of language and epistemology. You are assuming a very particular type of thinking and knowing and you do not recognize that something more is going on and you even reject that something more as useless. In a great irony, it is the same type of linear thinking and rationality that "literalist/fundamentalist" believers use. (As an aside, I have always found the phrase literalist problematic because on some level -- all knowing is literalist and should be. But what I really mean when I use those words "literalist believer" or "fundamentalist", I mean people who focus on a particular way of knowing things, proving things and who ignore that knowing and proper brain functioning involves more than they are actually noticing.) So you and the believers who focus on "linear rationality ONLY" are approaching the world in the same way and disagreeing about the conclusions.
I am suggesting to you that the tradition is actually pointing to something VERY different than your assumptions and so the questions you ask are not getting at the point. I have tried pointing this out to you in the past posts to you but you do not seem interested in pursuing what I propose.
In the end, it matters not because it is an issue of faith. God -- cannot be proven or disproven (in the manner you are assuming nor in the manner in which I am assuming). It is a matter of faith. BUT faith is NOT blind guessing based on nothing. Faith is a commitment to walking a path/living a life based on lived experience that has been tested on a personal level. Choosing a partner to marry, a career to pursue, which school to attend. In all of those cases there is no evidence or empirical data that PROVES marrying this person, choosing this career or school is the TRUTH -- the CORRECT CHOICE. One cannot KNOW that. One TRUSTS (has faith) their decision to live a certain way and make certain choices based on a lived life that is questioned, doubted, thought about, studied, etc. Religious faith is the same thing.
Ask a Buddhist why they believe (have faith/trust in) the Buddha about reincarnation, karma, enlightenment, nirvana (things that cannot be empirically proven) -- and they will tell you that they studied it and tested it out themselves as they began walking the path and paid attention to their mind in meditation and noticed the things that the Buddha pointed out and they found he had described something accurate that they could test in their life so they committed their lives to that path.
It is no different for theists (except for those theists who are "following linear rationality ONLY" who feel they HAVE proof in the way you are asking for it -- but as I said -- I disagree with their assessment and point out that the theistic traditions are not speaking about "faith" in that way.)
- If God didnít manifest itself as it is said in the holy Anonymous, Wed Jun 13 8:07pmbooks. And I use the word holy books with a lot of deserved contempt. So if god didnít do that than what evidence is there that a god even is. It is than very clear that a god only reveals itself in... more
- There IS no real evidence greenman, Sat Jun 16 3:57pmAll religion is purely and simply a matter of belief and faith. There IS no objective proof that ANY faith is real, much less unique and requiring one's belief.
- Hmm I didn't noticed that I didn't put it under Δι Διός, Fri Jun 15 7:09pmSorry about that. Διός
- Inother words if god only reveals himself to the very few Anonymous, Thu Jun 14 4:49pmΔιός, then could God be a scam invented by those that would benefit by the scam, hence the priests and religious leaders who would gain both political lower and wealth from the... more
- Well it lets in a whole host of frauds of course. Διός, Fri Jun 15 7:15pmAnd the vision one might get in it personal life is no more than a personal experiance. But as we see everyday the frauds run the show. Which is getting very dangerous with the connections to... more
- Re: Well it lets in a whole host of frauds of course. yome, Sat Jun 16 12:59amFather God, help this man, he sees every one's sins but his own.
- How does that relate to what he said about frauds ChristopherBlackwell, Sun Jun 17 5:46pmyome, Christians often claim that other religions are frauds. So that does bring up the question of how can one tell if a religion is real or afraid, including Christianity. After all religions are... more
- great question. yome, Sun Jun 17 11:33pmyou'll know in your heart chris when all is at peace between you and your creator, there will be no doubt if you ever experienced Christ, i have peace and assurance in my being, my heart is at peace, ... more
- yome. but I have that already ChristopherBlackwell, Tue Jun 19 6:25pmYome, You cannot understand that people in other religions feel this in their own religion. It is not something unique to Christianity. I am sure that Jews,Hindus,and and most modern Pagans feel... more
- Another quickstep past the real question welldone! Διός, Mon Jun 18 3:25amTammy and Jim Baker weren't fraudsters? The raping preacher weren't fraudsters either? Holy Mary what a dirty mess! Διός
- Yome doesn't answer plain questions. Διός , Sun Jun 17 6:52pmBut is very good in pushing hid fraudulent sin thingie' Without much susses I might add. Διός
- Really what are they? Διός , Sat Jun 16 5:02pmAnd don't spare me, make me laugh I need one right now. Διός
- Oops my response , Διός, (nm) ChristopherBlackwell, Thu Jun 14 4:50pm
- Your question doesn't even compute. Kevin, Thu Jun 14 7:55am
- Okay let ask this simple question which might helps. in the Διός, Thu Jun 14 9:19pmend. When and how did you get involved with your religion? And what I think is a holy book doesn't matter the bible is called the holy bible isn't? Saintly it isnít and certainly not for children or... more
- How will an answer to that question help? Kevin, Fri Jun 15 6:07amAnd how can I answer? It is not as simple a question as you think. It would require an entire telling of my faith journey from birth until now. The answer I would give initially: When did I "get... more
- As seen from your reply you too were exposed to organized Διός, Fri Jun 15 7:04pmAs seen from your reply you too were exposed to organized religion and then followed a path that was uncertain but you were still seeking. That too is a normal thing the seed is sown in the young.... more
- THAT'S what you got out of my long reply? Kevin, Fri Jun 15 8:47pmA seed was planted as a child? Wow. I am very disappointed. Reducing a person's curiosity to ask the big questions about the universe and who wants to study everything that can be studied -- science, ... more
- Wrong and don't push me, I been nice and like to stay that Διός, Fri Jun 15 10:04pmway. I asked for you beginning to religion and not your whole journey. And you know why I ask that and be honest you can't claim now that you might have been looking at a later stage but again that... more
- I am not trying to push you at all... Kevin, Sat Jun 16 7:58amI really am not. I am not trying to be mean or vindictive nor do I want "stardom". You think you are playing nice? Making comparisons with religion to "Nazis"? You think you are being "objective"... more
- When I was saying donít push me might sounded too harsh. Διός, Sat Jun 16 7:11pmI meant donít make me go in to all the nitty gritty stuff. I do have no time for that and I was taken aback by you criticism of my interpretation of you post on you beginning of you introduction to... more
- Thanks for that I will reply tomorrow it is to late now. (nm) Διός, Fri Jun 15 6:39am
- The believer also works on assumptions ChristopherBlackwell, Thu Jun 14 5:01pmKevin, So one could also say that the believer assumes much, including that the alleged holy books was somehow influenced by God. there is no way to actually prove such a things so it becomes a... more
- Your response.... Kevin, Thu Jun 14 7:36pmdemonstrates that we are talking about totally different things or misunderstanding each other. I never said anything about facts or logical arguments. I am simply pointing out that there is no... more
- But your method does not work in screaming matches ChristopherBlackwell, Fri Jun 15 7:43pmKevin, And so much of what passes for religious discussion here ends up in being screaming matches. I have no problem with the idea that a god would be unknowable,that is beyond human understanding.... more
- Norhing you say... Kevin, Mon Jun 18 8:41pmGoes against the idea of orthodoxy or the tradition as I have come to understand it and teach it. As much as certain voices in and out of the tradition are sure they know what the tradition is, there ... more
- And you're right we still have many others that either fall Διός, Fri Jun 15 8:36pmunder (grin hopefully not busses) mainstream religion and are not the real self thinkers but mainly followers and do as told. And it is just those that are in the category you mentioned. That is why... more
- Might be wise to start anew string ChristopherBlackwell, Fri Jun 15 7:45pmKevin, Because who knows what direction this conversation will go.
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