PudJust say NO to The Doors, eh?Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:43pm22.214.171.124Pulled a Jimbo on 'em, did the little lady?
The night of September 17th, 1967, before they went on stage, The Doors were asked by one of the producers of the show to change the lyrics of their hit “Light My Fire.” The producers didn’t want Morrison to sing “Girl we couldn’t get much higher,” and argued that the word “higher” was inappropriate for a family show on national television. However, when the time came to perform, Jim Morrison disobeyed orders and sang the lyrics as they were originally written. A furious Ed Sullivan banned The Doors from ever appearing on his show again.
So, with Kaitlin having tossed a prohibited change-up from the podium, the school admin is put in the unfortunate position of having to choose between addressing her minor transgression with (presumably minor) disciplinary action, on the one hand, or ignoring her little stunt (at the risk of encouraging an "escalation" from heck/hell today, to, say, freaking/fvcking tomorrow), on the other. The admin decided imposition of minor disciplinary action in the face of a minor offense was appropriate. Seems perfectly reasonable to me, although assuming Kaitlin has satisfied all the requirements for graduation, I don't see how the school authorities could legally impose any disciplinary measure at this point in time.
Kaitlin's reference (elsewhere) to this "country where we are free to speak" - her couching the issue, by implication, as one of free speech rather than one of betrayal of trust, which is what it is, primarily - makes me wonder, had it been heck/hell yesterday, and ignored by the school then, might it have been freaking/fvcking in this case? Would that strike anyone here as being inappropriate in the setting of a graduation ceremony? Suppose a decade down the road of vanishing standards the top scholar gets up there and recognizes his fellow "c*cks*ckers of the Class of 2022", you know, Lenny Bruce style. That okay?
Where to draw the line with respect to what should or should not be permitted in such speeches isn't Kaitline Nootbaar's call to make. Personally, I wouldn't draw the line in so conservative a fashion as did PHS in this case, but, ya know what, if it happens that ball four is called strike three, well, even Albert Pujols respects the rules and takes a seat. So, too, should Kaitline Nootbaar, IMO. She did wrong, she's in the wrong, and she has an apology to write.
Of course, my POV could change, possibly radically, as more facts of the matter become known. Or not. I suspect not.
- What the hell....? wondering, Mon Aug 20 2:57pmis wrong with these people? High school valedictorian denied her diploma for using the word "hell" in her speech. Houston, we have a problem.... more
- Just say NO to The Doors, eh? Pud, Mon Aug 20 9:43pm
- LOL Mondo Fuego™ , Tue Aug 21 8:21amIt was freedom of speech. No apology necessary for use of and reliance upon the First Amendment. What the hell is wrong with the use of the word "hell". Preachers shout the word all the time in... more
- I disagree.... Sprout, Tue Aug 21 10:43amWhen a person hosts their own event and speaks representing themself, it is a pure freedom of speech issue... But when a person is INVITED to speak at an event hosted by OTHERS, and agrees to a set... more
- Where are the facts ... Mondo Fuego™ , Tue Aug 21 11:15am... supporting the notion that the Doors agreed to modify their lyrics ... or the notion that the student agreed to not say "hell"? Facts, Mr Sprout, facts. The "piece of paper" that she wants... more
- Courtesy and respect to ones host Mondo... Sprout, Tue Aug 21 11:50amit is NOT just about a contractual obligation. If you show your ass in my home I will ask you to leave and not invite you back. No contracts, no agreements. Yes, she is off to college on a full... more
- The school official ... Mondo Fuego™ , Tue Aug 21 1:18pm... is not a "host" in the same sense that you would be my host in your home. The school official's duty is to give all students who completed the academic requirements a diploma. Oh, well, as usual, ... more
- In your example... wondering, Tue Aug 21 5:13amThe Doors were asked to change a word in their lyrics before they went on stage with the reasoning that it was inappropriate for their audience. I saw nothing in the article that suggested that the... more
- Re: In your example... Pud, Tue Aug 21 7:12pmThe Doors committed to singing approved lyrics, the student committed to speaking approved language. Neither honored their commitment. That's the comparison. Yes, there are particulars of the story... more
- She was required to get her speech approved.... Sprout, Tue Aug 21 10:39amSo, just like the Doors event, the folks running the event had PRE-approved an agreed upon performance. How, had she used the word "hell" in her approved script, and THEN they objected afterwards, it ... more
- Not the same. wondering, Tue Aug 21 12:49pmThe Doors were specifically asked to change the lyrics to their song. The student may very well have intended to use the word "heck" in her speech, just as she had written it, but it inadvertantly... more
- So now we know Pud, Wed Aug 22 6:36pmthat it was not an inadvertent utterance (although, earlier, the student's father made that false claim). The script for the teenager's speech - inspired by the film Eclipse: The Twilight Saga - had... more
- It doesn't matter..... Sprout, Tue Aug 21 12:52pmIf you ask somene to not say "F*ck" in front of your child, and they MEANT to say "freak" yet still in fact said "F*ck" they did in fact say "f*ck" in front of your child. I say that her action was... more
- A diploma ... Mondo Fuego™ , Tue Aug 21 1:29pm... is far more than just "a piece of paper", dude. It represents, dignifies and gives legitimacy to a major achievement after years of hard work.
- It is just a piece of paper.... Sprout, Tue Aug 21 1:33pmI havew a couple of my own as well.... Now, IF her college was refusing her admission on the grounds of lacking that piece of paper, she might have grounds for claiming harm....
- Yours are just pieces of paper ... Mondo Fuego™ , Tue Aug 21 1:36pm... in addition to attesting to my superior education, mine are like million dollar bills. ;) LOL
- Certainly that is how you FEEL.... Sprout, Tue Aug 21 1:38pmBut you would be hard pressed to document HARM in a court of law for lacking those items. Certainly they have great SENTIMENTAL value.... but nothing more.
- You are assuming. wondering, Tue Aug 21 12:58pmI see nothing from the article that says what specific words or "standards" they informed her of or expected for the speech. I seriously doubt that any speaker says every word exactly verbatim... more
- So are you.... Sprout, Tue Aug 21 1:06pmI would not expect PERFECTION from a student speech. I would expect an absence of profanity.... even if you don't think that SPECIFIC word usage is very profane. It doesn't MATTER whether or not you... more
- test test, Tue Aug 28 7:58am
- test test, Tue Aug 28 7:59am
- Most people wondering, Tue Aug 21 1:12pmwould consider the "f" word to be obscene or profane. Not so for the "h" word, IMO. I would not expect the same response to those two words at all. YMMV
- Some get more offended, some get less offended... Sprout, Tue Aug 21 1:30pmSome don't get offended at all... But it isn't the DEGREE of offense that matters in this case at all... Consider this forum. Ken PROVIDES this forum. And as such KEN has a right to set standards for ... more
- The school has no authority ... Mondo Fuego™ , Tue Aug 21 1:34pm... to withhold a diploma that has been earned. It was a poorly-chosen power play by a wimpy school official. No wonder we have fallen below 20th academic rank in Math, Reading and Science as a... more
- What does a school provide? Sprout, Tue Aug 21 1:39pmAn education? Or a document? She has the education. And she has the necessary documentation to continue in her desired path to college... What is missing? Just a piece of paper.
- George Carlin said it best Clawson, Mon Aug 20 7:51pm...when he said we are owned .
- That is ... Mondo Fuego™ , Mon Aug 20 3:55pm... one hell of a stupid situation. She will get her diploma without an apology ... it's only a matter of time.
- Maybe, maybe not... but it doesn't matter... Sprout, Tue Aug 21 10:45amIt's just a piece of paper. Her transcripts will reflect her completing all of the courses required... It will not impact her going to college in the fall... It is just a piece of paper. So, she... more
- Preachers say "hell" all the time ... Mondo Fuego™ , Tue Aug 21 11:18am... are they cussing? Is "hell" a cuss word? Where is that set in stone? No, what we have here is an authoritarian dick head desperately trying to act important. If it goes to court, he will get shot ... more
- A preacher is in his/her own church... Sprout, Tue Aug 21 11:53am"hell" is considered minor profanity for most uses. Certainl if one is describing an afterlife as portrayed in the bible, that term can probably be used without it being considered a minor... more
- I would say that holding the student's diploma ... Mondo Fuego™ , Tue Aug 21 1:25pm... which she has earned is a litigable matter ... it is rightfully her property ... it is a big deal, far overshadowing any "wrong" or "harm" done by saying "hell". I am very proud of my 3 diplomas... more
- It is a piece of paper.... Sprout, Tue Aug 21 1:31pmWhere is the CONTRACT that says the school is obligated to provide that piece of paper? They provided the eduction, and they provided the transcripts documenting the eduction. In terms of a civil... more
- Go cash your paycheck ... Mondo Fuego™ , Tue Aug 21 3:13pm... in $100 bills and send me the "paper". After all, it's just "paper" too. :) You are not an attorney, so you are clueless as to her rights, or what she would have to prove in court. The material... more
- I doubt it... Sprout, Wed Aug 22 5:30amWhen I was in high school, (far more recently than you) there WAS a specific list of behaviors for graduation that were deemed not acceptable, and the penalty for violating them WAS that you would... more
- I went ... Mondo Fuego™ , Wed Aug 22 7:27am... to a private high school (McCallie in Chattanooga) where there was no need for the kind of bullshit that goes on in public school administration. I got an education instead of a brainwashing in... more
- You went there a LONG time ago... Sprout, Wed Aug 22 8:01amAnd in your era, a certain degree of decorum was EXPECTED... and a certain degree of discipline was EXPECTED... That is no longer the case. Remember you are talking about the relationship between a... more
- This one we agree on Christopher Blackwell , Mon Aug 20 5:23pmMondo Fuego™, I can't imagine a school trying to punish their best student. It is not like thtwehavetomany good students. Though notice there is at least one other case mentioned in the article. I... more
- Authoritarians HATE to be disobeyed... Truthteller, Tue Aug 21 8:32amso they go out of their way to drive home the lesson that they shouldn't be challenged. That's how police depts. and governments work. Of course, we all know that there are some brave enough TO... more
- PC people, Authoritarians and the like haven't a clue... et, Mon Aug 20 6:31pmthat however they are treating folks today, tomorrow its gonna bite them and their offspring in the ass.
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