Kim
Re: Grimm and Schoske on Smenkhkare
Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:12
86.170.22.113

Hi Joe

Thanks for posting this. It does indeed read as though Gabolde wrote it. Is he not credited, even in a footnote? The authors present the idea of Smenkhkare = Zannanza as though they had just thought of it.

"The repudiation of Kija, which results clearly from the erasure of her names and images, and the death of Nefretete before Echnaton, secured by the only known shabti of this queen, makes it unlikely that one of these two women could have been Echnaton's successor on the royal throne. So only Meritaton remains."
I remain unconvinced of this argument. True, Kiya disappears in a definitive way (her name and images over-written by others) but this does not happen to Nefertiti. As for shabti figures, we have no idea if these would have been prepared in advance at this date, as very little is known for certain about the procedures for "Amarna" style burials. With regard to the "disappearance" of individuals, this seems to be a result of the lack of clearly dated depictions after year 12. To assign the death of Nefertiti definitively to year 17 seems over-confident.

The name-changes which affect this period can be major, but also minor, probably depending on whether their birth-name referred to the old pantheon. Tutankhuaten the prince becomes Tutankhaten the king. So I cannot see why Meryetaten (already a name acceptable to the new theology) would change to Neferneferuaten.

One also has to take into account the identification of the KV55 mummy with Akhenaten. If this is correct, then Akhenaten came to the thone aged about 10 and died aged about 26. Even his eldest daughter Meryetaten would only be about 11-12 on his death, perhaps even younger. Can we credit her with the ability to confound powerful officials, both in seeking a foreigner as husband and then in becoming "king" herself despite the existence of a male heir, when a decade later AnkhesenAmun, with these examples before her, failed to accomplish either?

"In unpublished blocks from the Netjeri-menu in Karnak Hatschepsut appears as a "fictitious co-regent" of Thutmosis II."
Is this correct? Not Thutmose I but II?

"The reason for Semenchkare's two throne names and for the lack of a real birth name is clear: only on the occasion of his coronation would both royal names be formulated. Previously he must have been had a different name. As a husband of Meritaton, Semenchkare would have had at least the status of a "king's son" before his accession."
I agree this seems most likely.

"However between the end of the reign of Amenophis III and the end of the reign of Echnaton, other than Tutanchamun, there is no evidence of any other Egyptian prince under this or any other name."
This is where I disagree. The belongings of a prince Thutmose among the grave-goods of TutankhAmun cannot be identified with any confidence as those of Akhenaten's brother of that name (different titles) or even with Thutmose IV as a prince. The Hermopolis block showing a prince among the children of Nefertiti does not identify him by name AFAIK and it has been construed as being TutankhAmun only by default. The "absence of evidence" argument is not strong in the case of princes, who are rarely shown in royal family iconography before Ramesses II.

Regards

Kim

  • Grimm and Schoske on SmenkhkareJoe Baker, Mon Jun 28 08:50
    Hi All The following is my translation of the chapter labelled "Semenchkare" in the book by Grimm and Schoske. I include it here for your information but also I would say, if I did not know better,... more
    • Re: Grimm and Schoske on Smenkhkare — Kim, Tue Jun 29 12:12
      • Hermopolis blockJan Bailey, Thu Jul 1 02:43
        Kim said: "The Hermopolis block showing a prince among the children of Nefertiti does not identify him by name AFAIK and it has been construed as being TutankhAmun only by default. " Can you please... more
        • re: Hermopolis BlockKim Sargerson, Fri Jul 2 18:56
          Hi Jan It is my understanding that these blocks are published in "G. Roeder, Amarna-Reliefs aus Hermopolis: Ausgrabungen der Deutschen Hermopolis-Expedition in Hermopolis 19291939", ed. R. Hanke,... more
          • Hermopolis block showing male childJan Bailey, Fri Jul 9 19:48
            Hi Kim I have had two independent people look at your reference: "G. Roeder, Amarna-Reliefs aus Hermopolis: Ausgrabungen der Deutschen Hermopolis-Expedition in Hermopolis 1929-1939", ed. R.... more
            • Joe some assistance pleaseKim Sargerson, Wed Jul 21 12:53
              Hi Joe Jan Bailey has questioned the source of the reference to a Hermopolis block showing a male child. I have checked my own notes and I do not find any reference to an article - I first read about ... more
              • Re: Joe some assistance pleaseJoe Baker, Thu Jul 22 07:39
                Hi Kim Apology for writing 43-VIIIC it is actually 433/VIII C. I have this information from an old post of the French Egyptologists Marc Gabolde which he sent to the original but now defunct Amarna... more
                • block 433/VIIICJan Bailey, Tue Jul 27 02:23
                  Hi I now have an image of block 433/VIIIC, as well as the other images from Heliopolis. (I can send off line to you Joe) Sorry, but it would take a whole lot of imagination to make the squiggles into ... more
                  • Re: block 433/VIIICJoe Baker, Thu Jul 29 07:04
                    Hi Jan Thanks for the picture. Well I for one can not make much out of it. Presumably those who have done extensive work on the style of royal depictions in the Amarna pictures can make more sense... more
                  • block 433/VIIICJan Bailey, Wed Jul 28 03:26
                    whoops, of course I mean Hermopolis!
                • re: Joe some assistance pleaseKim Sargerson, Thu Jul 22 12:11
                  Hi Joe Many thanks for the correct plate reference. I also thank you for re-posting Gabolde's thoughts on this, which (to me) make perfect sense. Although it is not explicit any where that Baketaten... more
      • Re: Grimm and Schoske on SmenkhkareJoe Baker, Wed Jun 30 07:18
        Hi Kim As for shabti figures, we have no idea if these would have been prepared in advance at this date ... With regard to the "disappearance" of individuals, this seems to be a result of the lack of ... more
        • Re: Gabolde on SmenkhkareKim Sargerson, Wed Jun 30 11:49
          Hi Joe Thanks for your comments. "But as yet there is no evidence of pharaonic shabti figures for Nefertiti." Are there any for Neferneferuaten (discounting any re-used goods) - irrespective of who... more
          • Re: Gabolde on SmenkhkareJoe Baker, Fri Jul 2 06:31
            Hi Kim In their book Edward Wente and James Harris used X-ray technique to derive an age estimate of near 35. Wente repeated this in an article in 1995, see... more
            • Re: Gabolde on SmenkhkareKim, Fri Jul 2 12:04
              Hi Joe Thanks for the references. I had read Wente's article, but not the Hussein / Harris report. Not being an anatomist, I would really like to pull all of these people out of time from Elliott... more
      • Gabolde?Jan Bailey, Wed Jun 30 01:12
        Hi Joe and Kim My little grey cells were not functioning very well when I sent the 10 page extraction to you Joe. The section about SmenkhaRe is taken from the chapter Das Ende Der Amarnazeit and was ... more
        • re: Gabolde?Kim Sargerson, Wed Jun 30 12:15
          Hi Jan Thanks for the correction on authorship. You wrote "As to MeryAten being too young to be wily enough to confound officials, one must not place modern thoughts of 'children' on the throne with... more
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