Joe Baker
Re: Grimm and Schoske on Smenkhkare
Wed Jun 30, 2010 07:18
218.215.217.77

Hi Kim

As for shabti figures, we have no idea if these would have been prepared in advance at this date ... With regard to the "disappearance" of individuals, this seems to be a result of the lack of clearly dated depictions ... To assign the death of Nefertiti definitively to year 17 seems over-confident.

Normally I would agree, but as these very things support my position I will claim them as a positive, however IF later discoveries prove these "absence of evidence" wrong then I would have to change my position. But as yet there is no evidence of pharaonic shabti figures for Nefertiti. Clear evidence for me is the very latest Amarna letters where Meritaten is the main female at the Amarna court (against any mention of Nefertiti in the international correspondence). As different types of "absence of evidence" builds up one has to ask if this is because your assumptions are wrong?

I cannot see why Meryetaten (already a name acceptable to the new theology) would change to Neferneferuaten

So why would Nefertiti change her name to what was once only her epithet? Wasn't the name she had used for 16 years as chief royal queen good enough?

the identification of the KV55 mummy with Akhenaten. If this is correct, then Akhenaten came to the thone aged about 10 and died aged about 26.

I have always followed Harris's X-ray analysis of 35-40. And guess what? This is now the age range provided by the latest CT scans and accepted by the Egyptian authorites. Thank you Hawass (praise be his name). As for those who still cling to 26 (or less) - bang your heads against a brick wall.

Even his eldest daughter Meryetaten would only be about 11-12 on his death, perhaps even younger. Can we credit her with the ability to confound powerful officials, both in seeking a foreigner as husband and then in becoming "king" herself despite the existence of a male heir

Meritaten could have been 15 when she became her father's queen (or even younger in these days). Given the mortality rates of the commoners at Amarna, she was well into middle age. And if she could be regarded as an adult by Burnaburiaš, then why not by other kings? Note her path to kingship had been paved earlier by Hatshepsut - only she took the next logical step and override the hereditary rights of Tutankhaten. (As for Ankhesenamun - well times had changed, there was no male heir but there were some pretty powerful officials who did not want the previous example followed).

Not Thutmose I but II?

Just as Hatshepsut claim to power was as the chief wife of Tuthmosis 2 (not as daughter of Tuthmosis 1) so too was Neferneferuaten's (Meritaten) claim to power based on her being the chief wife of Akhenaten (not as daughter of Akhenaten).

The "absence of evidence" argument is not strong in the case of princes

I agree.

Regards Joe


  • Re: Grimm and Schoske on SmenkhkareKim, Tue Jun 29 12:12
    Hi Joe Thanks for posting this. It does indeed read as though Gabolde wrote it. Is he not credited, even in a footnote? The authors present the idea of Smenkhkare = Zannanza as though they had just... more
    • Hermopolis blockJan Bailey, Thu Jul 1 02:43
      Kim said: "The Hermopolis block showing a prince among the children of Nefertiti does not identify him by name AFAIK and it has been construed as being TutankhAmun only by default. " Can you please... more
      • re: Hermopolis BlockKim Sargerson, Fri Jul 2 18:56
        Hi Jan It is my understanding that these blocks are published in "G. Roeder, Amarna-Reliefs aus Hermopolis: Ausgrabungen der Deutschen Hermopolis-Expedition in Hermopolis 1929–1939", ed. R. Hanke,... more
        • Hermopolis block showing male childJan Bailey, Fri Jul 9 19:48
          Hi Kim I have had two independent people look at your reference: "G. Roeder, Amarna-Reliefs aus Hermopolis: Ausgrabungen der Deutschen Hermopolis-Expedition in Hermopolis 1929-1939", ed. R.... more
          • Joe some assistance pleaseKim Sargerson, Wed Jul 21 12:53
            Hi Joe Jan Bailey has questioned the source of the reference to a Hermopolis block showing a male child. I have checked my own notes and I do not find any reference to an article - I first read about ... more
            • Re: Joe some assistance pleaseJoe Baker, Thu Jul 22 07:39
              Hi Kim Apology for writing 43-VIIIC it is actually 433/VIII C. I have this information from an old post of the French Egyptologists Marc Gabolde which he sent to the original but now defunct Amarna... more
              • block 433/VIIICJan Bailey, Tue Jul 27 02:23
                Hi I now have an image of block 433/VIIIC, as well as the other images from Heliopolis. (I can send off line to you Joe) Sorry, but it would take a whole lot of imagination to make the squiggles into ... more
                • Re: block 433/VIIICJoe Baker, Thu Jul 29 07:04
                  Hi Jan Thanks for the picture. Well I for one can not make much out of it. Presumably those who have done extensive work on the style of royal depictions in the Amarna pictures can make more sense... more
                • block 433/VIIICJan Bailey, Wed Jul 28 03:26
                  whoops, of course I mean Hermopolis!
              • re: Joe some assistance pleaseKim Sargerson, Thu Jul 22 12:11
                Hi Joe Many thanks for the correct plate reference. I also thank you for re-posting Gabolde's thoughts on this, which (to me) make perfect sense. Although it is not explicit any where that Baketaten... more
    • Re: Grimm and Schoske on Smenkhkare — Joe Baker, Wed Jun 30 07:18
      • Re: Gabolde on SmenkhkareKim Sargerson, Wed Jun 30 11:49
        Hi Joe Thanks for your comments. "But as yet there is no evidence of pharaonic shabti figures for Nefertiti." Are there any for Neferneferuaten (discounting any re-used goods) - irrespective of who... more
        • Re: Gabolde on SmenkhkareJoe Baker, Fri Jul 2 06:31
          Hi Kim In their book Edward Wente and James Harris used X-ray technique to derive an age estimate of near 35. Wente repeated this in an article in 1995, see... more
          • Re: Gabolde on SmenkhkareKim, Fri Jul 2 12:04
            Hi Joe Thanks for the references. I had read Wente's article, but not the Hussein / Harris report. Not being an anatomist, I would really like to pull all of these people out of time from Elliott... more
    • Gabolde?Jan Bailey, Wed Jun 30 01:12
      Hi Joe and Kim My little grey cells were not functioning very well when I sent the 10 page extraction to you Joe. The section about SmenkhaRe is taken from the chapter Das Ende Der Amarnazeit and was ... more
      • re: Gabolde?Kim Sargerson, Wed Jun 30 12:15
        Hi Jan Thanks for the correction on authorship. You wrote "As to MeryAten being too young to be wily enough to confound officials, one must not place modern thoughts of 'children' on the throne with... more
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