Joe Baker
Re: Carter 001k
Sun Dec 18, 2011 07:40
218.215.215.140

Hi Tory and Ian

So if Carter 001k is mentioning Meritaten with titles "King Ankhkeperure Neferneferuaten" and "Chief Queen Meritaten" then she must have become Pharaoh AFTER her mention in Merire II's tomb because she was still just Chief Queen in that tomb.

I completely agree. I just wanted to make sure that you understood this inscription as referring only to Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten/Meritaten and in no way concerns Smenkhkare (under any name).

Take note Ian, in post 12288 of 10 Dec, you asked for evidence of a triple cartouched Ankheperure Neferneferuaten Meritaten. Here it is on Carter 001k and I have Tory to back me up. Usually it is assumed to be a male Nefernefruaten and his wife Meritaten, but nothing separates the second and third names other than a title where if they were different people one would see something like “may he/she live for ever” after Neferneferuaten (as it does after Meritaten).

Notice also something that never occurs in royal cartouches from this or any other era. Whenever we see meri-X inside these cartouches it always refers to a major god i.e. Amun, Re, Ptan, etc., but here, in the time of Neferneferuaten only, we see instead of meri-god, meri-Neferkheperure and meri-Waenre, the praenomens of Akhenaten and so here Akhenaten is a god (more so then the usual Horus/Osiris theme which Akhenaten rejected). (IMO all references of Neferneferuaten with Akhenatenare posthumous and were used to legitimise the rule of Meritaten). Particularly note the use of Waenre and maybe this led to the Oros of Manetho and is behind his story about Or attempting to see the gods.

Also Ian, you asked about the double cartouche for Ankhkheperre Meriaten. This occurs on the sequins Carter 046gg and has been discussed before by me and commented on by Werner in posts 10016 and 10024. These comments concerned the garment into which these sequins were sown. It is from the time when Tutankhamun was a small child and is a clue to his age when Meritaten was ruling.

Well we can have your very strange version of Manetho which asks us to believe Tutankhamun was the literal father of Achencheres II (who would be?), the literal grandfather of Achencheres III (Aye), and also the literal great-grandfather of Armais (Horemheb).

Now, now Tory, you know perfectly well you are misrepresenting me. The argument back then was over what Manetho thought - and that is how he (not I) saw the genealogy. Manetho writes clearly, plainly that Akenkheres was the daughter of Oros (and you have finally seen the light and recognised him as Akhenaten - whereas in previous debates with me you consistently insisted he was Amenhotep 3) and was succeeded by her brother Ratothis. Manetho understood his source perfectly, it said brother and he undoubtedly had access and transmitted fuller information which Iosephos did not pass on. If his Egyptian sources had said/meant uncle then Manetho would have presumably said so in Greek.

and let's not forget that her father never spoke of having any sons

Yes it’s true, I can not show you any inscription where Akhenaten mentions his son. But maybe you can show me an inscription of Amenhotep 2 mentioning his son Tuthmose 4, or Tuthmose 4 mentioning his son Amenhotep 3 or Amenhotep 3 mentioning his son Akhenaten (yet you have the later reigning together for 12 years and as Kim pointed out, while one was building temples to the gods up and down Egypt, the other was busy defacing them as soon as they were built).

All the Hittites did in the Deeds was get rid of the first ḫ in order to prevent the awkward ḫḫ and replace it with /p/ (sound substitution)

ḫ=p. Proof please. And as for ḫḫ, what are we to do with names beginning with Uḫḫa, including Uḫḫa-muwa who worked for Šuppiliulima’s father, or countries like Aḫḫiyawa or places like Ḫaḫḫum

death of Smenkhkare, Year 9

Again where are the records of Smenkhkare past year 1. We have a very large amount of attestations at this time and so gap of 8 years is unlikely - although you might want to compare it with your other hosts of unattested gaps. Why, at Akhetaten, does Smenkhkare not show up in temple reliefs, stela, building foundations, stamped bricks and paintings (except for one tomb painting)? No wonder I call him a ghost.

Regards Joe


  • Re: Carter 001kTory, Sat Dec 17 23:07
    Hi Joe So in your scheme, when Carter 001k was made, there where three pharoahs ruling in Egypt, all from the same city. Why are you not giving primary consideration to the status of Meritaten as... more
    • Re: Carter 001k — Joe Baker, Sun Dec 18 07:40
      • Re: Carter 001kIan Onvlee, Sun Dec 18 22:42
        Joe, Thanks for the references. At least we would be safe to assume that Neferneferuaten = Meritaten = Dakhamunu. However, in that case, if Dakhamunzu was not lying, and Mursili was not lying or was... more
        • Re: Carter 001kJoe Baker, Thu Dec 22 08:39
          Hi Ian Your theory of Smenkhkare being Zannanza is still being evaluated by me. If he was indeed Zannanza, he must have been killed on his way back home to visit his father after having married... more
          • Ankhkheperure at UgaritGabolde Marc, Sat Apr 28 05:07
            Dear member of ANECF To complement the informations concerning king Ankhkheperure, I just published an article (in french) devoted to an exceptionnal ivory plaque with Ankhkheperure's cartouche found ... more
            • Akhenaten as Nephersôphris in a Byzantine sourceMarc Gabolde, Tue May 29 03:44
              Dear member of the ANECF Dear colleagues, Please, find a link for an article (author Fabien Hertier, Montpellier) devoted to a surprising mention of Akhenaten in a Byzantine encyclopaedia from the... more
              • Merci Beaucoup Dr. Marc/The Article's English Version!Waael ebn Fekry, Thu May 31 20:38
                Respectable Dr./ Marc Gabolde, Merci beaucoup pour cette "Cadeau Egyptologique" fantastique! It is definitely an important addition to the data-base of my research on the Late 18th Dynasty Period,... more
              • re: Akhenaten as Nephersôphris in a Byzantine sourceMarianne Luban, Wed May 30 09:40
                Dear Marc, I cannot access the article--can you summarize it? But does Nephersôphris really amount to Neferkheperure even in the Northern Egyptian dialect--or just Neferkheperre? My research into... more
                • Nephersôphris AkhenatenMarc Gabolde, Thu May 31 08:53
                  Dear Marianne, Thank you very much for posting and advice. If you need a pdf copy of F. Hertier’s article, I can send it in attachment with the help of a valid e-mail address. If you have some... more
                  • re: Nephersôphris AkhenatenMarianne Luban, Thu May 31 17:09
                    Dear Marc, I'll try to access the paper again, but first I'll respond to some of your philological concerns. You wrote: “Concerning the identity of Nephersôphris, it seems that Akhenaten fits better... more
                    • Nephersôphris AkhenatenAnonymous, Fri Jun 1 06:02
                      Dear Marianne, MG original “Concerning the identity of Nephersôphris, it seems that Akhenaten fits better with the text of Suidas due to the ill reputation of that king. The other possible king would ... more
                    • re: Nephersôphris AkhenatenMarianne Luban, Thu May 31 18:18
                      I have read the brief paper but am skeptical about the prenomen of Akhenaten being represented here: Headword:... more
                • re: Akhenaten as Nephersôphris in a Byzantine sourceMarianne Luban, Wed May 30 12:57
                  Oh--I left out the most important part of what I was trying to say, which is--where is a king named Neferkheperre? I don't know of one. However, I am also skeptical of the name "Nephersôphris" on... more
          • Re: Carter 001kIan Onvlee, Sun Dec 25 13:24
            Hi Joe, Thanks for the references. Texts and languages are not my strongest. And thanks for your last post which reconfirms that the confusion you see in Manetho is of your own making. Along with... more
          • Re: Carter 001kMarianne Luban, Fri Dec 23 12:14
            Regarding the letter here: http://web.archive.org/web/20010426040650/www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/Ay.html I think it is not very likely that the queen who wrote to the Hittites can have... more
        • Manetho mid-late 18th dynastyJoe Baker, Tue Dec 20 07:18
          Hi Ian I am way behind in reading many of these posts. So rather than answer this one I want to lay some groundwork and return to an old post I began to write to counter one of your posts but never... more
          • Manetho mid-late 18th dynastyIan Onvlee, Wed Dec 21 07:54
            Hi Joe, Thanks for responding to an old post. I thought nobody was interested in the topic. I agree with you on certain points, as far as your philosophy goes, but it is mostly a matter of how we... more
      • anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasTory, Sun Dec 18 13:02
        Hi Joe ḫ=p. Proof please. Not ḫ=p but /p/ transposed from /xpr.w/ (Kheperu) to replace /ḫ/. Here is the evidence for the shifting /p/. The attested transliterations of the Egyptian... more
        • Re: anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasJoe Baker, Tue Dec 20 06:20
          Hi Tory In post 12394 you showed us how you get Nipḫururia from ‘nḫ-ḫprw-r‘, The last stage was via The /p/ in xprw is transposed as usual. But in EA 41 addressed to Ḫururia,... more
          • Re: anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasTory, Wed Dec 21 03:25
            Hi Joe In post 12394 you showed us how you get Nipḫururia from ‘nḫ-ḫprw-r‘, The last stage was via The /p/ in xprw is transposed as usual. But in EA 41 addressed to Ḫururia,... more
            • This is getting ridiculousMarianne Luban, Wed Dec 21 08:43
              Tory: "Going back to the previous example of ayin in anx eliding with /n/. I have been saying that depending on the contemporary articulation of the name Ankh-kheperu-re, which we do not know, the... more
              • Nib > Pip is where it got ridiculousTory, Wed Dec 21 09:20
                The only consonants that elide [which means are absorbed into the next consonant] are the labials and /n/ is often replaced by /m/. But /a/? Not a chance. Ridiculous was the meaningless excerise you... more
                • Repetition Doesn't Make It SoMarianne Luban, Wed Dec 21 16:09
                  Tory: "The ayin is a weak consonant and I showed plenty of examples where it falls away leaving a vowel or nothing at all. Absurd to say ayin which vanished in spoken Egyptian" It didn't vanish!... more
        • Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 14:01
          Tory: "I have seen the imaginary transliteration Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-iaš offered by people who really ought to know better. There is no such thing as Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-ias. The "nfr" element does... more
          • Re: Nap is not NipTory, Sun Dec 18 14:29
            I have been polite up to now but I have to say that, Tory, you are way out of your depth here. Where is it written "Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-ias." If somebody transliterated that, then they have a lot of... more
            • Re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 19:12
              Tory: "Wrong. There is not a single example of the "Nb" element becoming /Ni-ip/ or /Pi-ip/ in Akkadian regardless that /p/ and /b/ are labials. EVERY SINGLE TIME Nebmaare is translitered into... more
              • Re: Nap is not NipTory, Sun Dec 18 20:51
                I wrote: There is not a single example of the "Nb" element becoming /Ni-ip/ or /Pi-ip/ in Akkadian regardless that /p/ and /b/ are labials. EVERY SINGLE TIME Nebmaare is translitered into Akkadian it ... more
                • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 21:33
                  Tory: "No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples. The /n/ is not a labial and ... more
                  • Neb is never Pip, everTory, Mon Dec 19 04:49
                    No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples. Ask anyway--unless you're afraid... more
                    • Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 20:36
                      Not anybody who knows anything about linguistics. "n" can be interchangeable with "b" and "p"--easily. What about that king in Manetho's Dynasty II. He is called "Binothris"--but it's actually... more
                    • Nib is PipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:23
                      Marianne: "If the king who had just died as mentioned in the annals of Mursili could not have been Tutankhamun on a linguistic basis, a long line of language experts would never have assumed... more
                  • re: Nap is not NipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 01:29
                    Marianne, On a linguistic basis I would assume Dakhamunzu to be Ankhesenamun, but there are some nagging problems with this, the same as those with Meritaten as Dakhamunzu. She was the latest wife of ... more
                    • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:08
                      Ian: "There is no room for her after the death of Tutankhamun, since she was immediately married to Ay after the death of Tutankhamun. " How do you know? On account of that faience ring? That ring... more
      • Every year is accounted forTory, Sun Dec 18 10:38
        Bold Red are dated hieratic dockets on wine-jars found at Akhetaten with the title of the wine overseer. 1360 15 hry-k3mw 1359 16 hry-k3mw 1358 17 hry-k3mw 1357 18 hry-k3mw 1356 19 hry-k3mw 1355 20... more
        • Re: Every year is accounted forJoe Baker, Thu Dec 22 04:26
          Hi Tory When I gave the following example of your gaps - “12 year reign for Neferneferuaten (highest attested date year 3), 9 year reign for Smenkhkare (highest attested date year 1 and his only... more
          • Re: Every year is accounted forTory, Thu Dec 22 11:46
            Hi Joe He [Krauss] lists only the hry-b3ḥ official for years 13-17 of Akhenaten Amarna wine-jars per Petrie, Helck, Cerny and Fairman: ḥry-k3mw in Years 15, 16, 1, [2?], 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, ... more
            • Re: Every year is accounted forIan Onvlee, Fri Dec 23 16:09
              Hi Tory, Just analizing. If I forget for a moment the single Year 1 of Smenkhkare, which is difficult to place with any certainty anyway, I come accross the following lunar based chronology: 1376/5... more
              • Re: Every year is accounted for (correction)Ian Onvlee, Fri Dec 23 16:48
                I saw that year 17 ended up at the end of year 16, which is irritating, so I correct this here: Era Horemheb hry-k3mw hry-b'h Date BC Equation 1376 BC = 1 Akhetaten = 1 Akenkheres I (12 years) 1 1 ?... more
        • Every year is accounted forIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 04:11
          Tory, Bold Red are dated hieratic dockets on wine-jars found at Akhetaten with the title of the wine overseer. Would you mind changing the bold red into blue or something. I don't see a difference... more
          • Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Tory, Mon Dec 19 09:23
            Bold Red are dated hieratic dockets on wine-jars found at Akhetaten with the title of the wine overseer. 1360 15 hry-k3mw 1359 16 hry-k3mw 1358 17 hry-k3mw 1357 18 hry-k3mw 1356 19 hry-k3mw 1355 20... more
            • Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Ian Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:24
              Hi Tory, Thanks for the interesting list and chronology. But could you perhaps be more clear about the dates. I mean. Are these all stray dates, such as the years 28 and 30 probably are, or are the... more
              • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Tory, Mon Dec 19 20:14
                Hi Ian Perhaps your browser is the problem. It works fine with safari and firefox. Send me an email with a screen shot so I can see what you are seeing on your monitor. Also, if bold red doesn't... more
                • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Ian Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 21:34
                  Hi Tory, with 'doesn't work' I meant, I do see these items in red, but don't see any difference between "bold" red and normal red. It is perhaps the color red that makes it difficult to distinguish... more
                  • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Tory, Mon Dec 19 21:47
                    Ok so ignore bold and just focus on the red. Everything in red is a wine-jar found in the city of Akhetaten with a year-date and the official title of the wine overseer at the time of the date. These ... more
                    • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Ian Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 22:06
                      Hi Tory, Ah, ok. Thanks. But if they are all anonymous, how did you distinguish one from the other with the same overseer title, and how did you decide when the title changed and when it changed back ... more
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