Tory
Every year is accounted for
Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:38
112.198.81.174

Bold Red are dated hieratic dockets on wine-jars found at Akhetaten with the title of the wine overseer.

1360 15 hry-k3mw
1359 16 hry-k3mw
1358 17 hry-k3mw
1357 18 hry-k3mw
1356 19 hry-k3mw
1355 20 hry-k3mw
1354 21 hry-k3mw
1353 22 hry-k3mw
1352 23 hry-k3mw
1351 24 hry-k3mw
1350 25 hry-k3mw
1349 26 hry-k3mw
1348 27 1 hry-k3mw accession of Neferkheperure Amenhotep IV
1347 28 2 hry-k3mw
1346 29 3 hry-k3mw
1345 30 4 hry-k3mw
1344 31 5 hry-k3mw foundation of Akhetaten
1343 32 6 hry-k3mw
1342 33 7 hry-k3mw
1341 34 8 hry-k3mw
1340 35 9 hry-k3mw
1339 36 10 hry-k3mw
1338 37 11 hry-k3mw
1337 38 12 hry-k3mw
1336 13 hry-k3mw overseer's title changed to hry-b'h
1335 14 hry-b'h
1334 15 hry-b'h
1333 16 hry-b'h
1332 17 1 hry-b'h accessions of Ankhkheperure & Ankhkheperure (Smenkhkare & Meritaten)
1331 2 hry-b'h
1330 3 hry-b'h
1329 4 hry-b'h
1328 5 hry-b'h
1327 6 hry-b'h
1326 7 hry-b'h
1325 8 hry-b'h
1324 9 hry-b'h death of Smenkhkare (Bip-hu-ru-ri-ia-as)
1323 1 10 hry-b'h accession of Nebkheperure Tutankhuaten
1322 2 11 hry-b'h Akhetaten abandoned by royal court
1321 3 12 hry-b'h death of Meritaten
1320 4 hry-k3mw overseer's title changed back to hry-k3mw (wine-jar from Tut's tomb)
1319 5 hry-k3mw
1318 6 hry-k3mw
1317 7 hry-k3mw
1316 8 hry-k3mw
1315 9 hry-k3mw
1314 10 hry-k3mw
1313 11 hry-k3mw
1312 12 hry-k3mw

I assume there was a 12-year co-regency with Amenhotep III's death taking place in Year 12 of his son Akhenaten. If there was no co-regency the wine-jar dated Year 15 when the title of the wine overseer was hry-k3mw would have sat around for not less than 28 years before it was brought to Akhetaten. The long co-regency cuts this down to 16 years. The wine-jar from Akhetaten dated Year 10 (BM 55679), with the overseer's title at that time being hry-b'h, is one I mentioned before on this forum in 2008 (post #8087) from J. Cerny's article in JEA 50 (1964), p. 38. This year-date has to belong to Pharaoh Meritaten unless we are to believe the wine overseers were playing a comical back and forth game of musical chairs with their official title. Notice that the title of the wine overseer reverted back to hry-k3mw in Year 4 of Tutankhamun but the royal court was no longer at Akhetaten.

Tory, you know perfectly well you are misrepresenting me. The argument back then was over what Manetho thought - and that is how he (not I) saw the genealogy.

What I know is that you're misreading of the Greek is forcing Manetho to look like an idiot, and is simply not necessary. He could not possibly have thought every king of D.XVIII was the literal son of his predecessor unless otherwise stated.

Manetho understood his source perfectly, it said brother and he undoubtedly had access and transmitted fuller information which Iosephos did not pass on. If his Egyptian sources had said/meant uncle then Manetho would have presumably said so in Greek.

Odd how you see Manetho the native idiot historian everywhere in his genealogy except for Achencheres and Rathotis. HIS SOURCE was Egyptian and there is no word for "uncle" in Egyptian. sn=s was simply translated into Greek "her brother" without explanation. Manetho transmitted old data. He did not have to fully understand what he transmitted.

I can not show you any inscription where Akhenaten mentions his son. But maybe you can show me an inscription of Amenhotep 2 mentioning his son Tuthmose 4, or Tuthmose 4 mentioning his son Amenhotep 3...

I can show you inscriptions where Akhenaten mentions all of his children up until Year 12 and no son is ever mentioned, ever. For Smenkhkare and Meritaten to succeed him as the tomb of Merire II and Carter 001k shows proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Akhenaten had no literal son, because if he did that son's claims would have prevented Meritaten from becoming king before him. And Smenkhkare is a grown MAN in the scene in Merire II's tomb, so he cannot be Akhenaten's son either.

ḫ=p. Proof please. And as for ḫḫ, what are we to do with names beginning with Uḫḫa, including Uḫḫa-muwa who worked for Őuppiliulimaĺs father, or countries like Aḫḫiyawa or places like Ḫaḫḫum

Next post.

Again where are the records of Smenkhkare past year 1. We have a very large amount of attestations at this time and so gap of 8 years is unlikely - although you might want to compare it with your other hosts of unattested gaps. Why, at Akhetaten, does Smenkhkare not show up in temple reliefs, stela, building foundations, stamped bricks and paintings (except for one tomb painting)? No wonder I call him a ghost.

See my above allocation of the anonymous year dates on dated wine-jars. Also consider that Smenkhkare probably spent most of his time at Memphis where his building activity is attested. He's no ghost at all.

Tory

  • Re: Carter 001kJoe Baker, Sun Dec 18 07:40
    Hi Tory and Ian So if Carter 001k is mentioning Meritaten with titles "King Ankhkeperure Neferneferuaten" and "Chief Queen Meritaten" then she must have become Pharaoh AFTER her mention in Merire... more
    • Re: Carter 001kIan Onvlee, Sun Dec 18 22:42
      Joe, Thanks for the references. At least we would be safe to assume that Neferneferuaten = Meritaten = Dakhamunu. However, in that case, if Dakhamunzu was not lying, and Mursili was not lying or was... more
      • Re: Carter 001kJoe Baker, Thu Dec 22 08:39
        Hi Ian Your theory of Smenkhkare being Zannanza is still being evaluated by me. If he was indeed Zannanza, he must have been killed on his way back home to visit his father after having married... more
        • Ankhkheperure at UgaritGabolde Marc, Sat Apr 28 05:07
          Dear member of ANECF To complement the informations concerning king Ankhkheperure, I just published an article (in french) devoted to an exceptionnal ivory plaque with Ankhkheperure's cartouche found ... more
          • Akhenaten as Nephers˘phris in a Byzantine sourceMarc Gabolde, Tue May 29 03:44
            Dear member of the ANECF Dear colleagues, Please, find a link for an article (author Fabien Hertier, Montpellier) devoted to a surprising mention of Akhenaten in a Byzantine encyclopaedia from the... more
            • Merci Beaucoup Dr. Marc/The Article's English Version!Waael ebn Fekry, Thu May 31 20:38
              Respectable Dr./ Marc Gabolde, Merci beaucoup pour cette "Cadeau Egyptologique" fantastique! It is definitely an important addition to the data-base of my research on the Late 18th Dynasty Period,... more
            • re: Akhenaten as Nephers˘phris in a Byzantine sourceMarianne Luban, Wed May 30 09:40
              Dear Marc, I cannot access the article--can you summarize it? But does Nephers˘phris really amount to Neferkheperure even in the Northern Egyptian dialect--or just Neferkheperre? My research into... more
              • Nephers˘phris AkhenatenMarc Gabolde, Thu May 31 08:53
                Dear Marianne, Thank you very much for posting and advice. If you need a pdf copy of F. Hertierĺs article, I can send it in attachment with the help of a valid e-mail address. If you have some... more
                • re: Nephers˘phris AkhenatenMarianne Luban, Thu May 31 17:09
                  Dear Marc, I'll try to access the paper again, but first I'll respond to some of your philological concerns. You wrote: ôConcerning the identity of Nephers˘phris, it seems that Akhenaten fits better... more
                  • Nephers˘phris AkhenatenAnonymous, Fri Jun 1 06:02
                    Dear Marianne, MG original ôConcerning the identity of Nephers˘phris, it seems that Akhenaten fits better with the text of Suidas due to the ill reputation of that king. The other possible king would ... more
                    • re: Nephers˘phris AkhenatenMarianne Luban, Fri Jun 1 20:23
                      MG Original ôThe fact that /p/ disappears in xpr.w from the name of Akhenaten in the Amarna Letters is not as embarassing as you suggest. This is probably the result of the /p/ or /b/ of the first... more
                  • re: Nephers˘phris AkhenatenMarianne Luban, Thu May 31 18:18
                    I have read the brief paper but am skeptical about the prenomen of Akhenaten being represented here: Headword:... more
              • re: Akhenaten as Nephers˘phris in a Byzantine sourceMarianne Luban, Wed May 30 12:57
                Oh--I left out the most important part of what I was trying to say, which is--where is a king named Neferkheperre? I don't know of one. However, I am also skeptical of the name "Nephers˘phris" on... more
        • Re: Carter 001kIan Onvlee, Sun Dec 25 13:24
          Hi Joe, Thanks for the references. Texts and languages are not my strongest. And thanks for your last post which reconfirms that the confusion you see in Manetho is of your own making. Along with... more
        • Re: Carter 001kMarianne Luban, Fri Dec 23 12:14
          Regarding the letter here: http://web.archive.org/web/20010426040650/www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/Ay.html I think it is not very likely that the queen who wrote to the Hittites can have... more
      • Manetho mid-late 18th dynastyJoe Baker, Tue Dec 20 07:18
        Hi Ian I am way behind in reading many of these posts. So rather than answer this one I want to lay some groundwork and return to an old post I began to write to counter one of your posts but never... more
        • Manetho mid-late 18th dynastyIan Onvlee, Wed Dec 21 07:54
          Hi Joe, Thanks for responding to an old post. I thought nobody was interested in the topic. I agree with you on certain points, as far as your philosophy goes, but it is mostly a matter of how we... more
    • anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasTory, Sun Dec 18 13:02
      Hi Joe ḫ=p. Proof please. Not ḫ=p but /p/ transposed from /xpr.w/ (Kheperu) to replace /ḫ/. Here is the evidence for the shifting /p/. The attested transliterations of the Egyptian... more
      • Re: anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasJoe Baker, Tue Dec 20 06:20
        Hi Tory In post 12394 you showed us how you get Nipḫururia from Ĺnḫ-ḫprw-rĹ, The last stage was via The /p/ in xprw is transposed as usual. But in EA 41 addressed to Ḫururia,... more
        • Re: anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasTory, Wed Dec 21 03:25
          Hi Joe In post 12394 you showed us how you get Nipḫururia from Ĺnḫ-ḫprw-rĹ, The last stage was via The /p/ in xprw is transposed as usual. But in EA 41 addressed to Ḫururia,... more
          • This is getting ridiculousMarianne Luban, Wed Dec 21 08:43
            Tory: "Going back to the previous example of ayin in anx eliding with /n/. I have been saying that depending on the contemporary articulation of the name Ankh-kheperu-re, which we do not know, the... more
            • Nib > Pip is where it got ridiculousTory, Wed Dec 21 09:20
              The only consonants that elide [which means are absorbed into the next consonant] are the labials and /n/ is often replaced by /m/. But /a/? Not a chance. Ridiculous was the meaningless excerise you... more
              • Repetition Doesn't Make It SoMarianne Luban, Wed Dec 21 16:09
                Tory: "The ayin is a weak consonant and I showed plenty of examples where it falls away leaving a vowel or nothing at all. Absurd to say ayin which vanished in spoken Egyptian" It didn't vanish!... more
      • Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 14:01
        Tory: "I have seen the imaginary transliteration Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-iaÜ offered by people who really ought to know better. There is no such thing as Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-ias. The "nfr" element does... more
        • Re: Nap is not NipTory, Sun Dec 18 14:29
          I have been polite up to now but I have to say that, Tory, you are way out of your depth here. Where is it written "Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-ias." If somebody transliterated that, then they have a lot of... more
          • Re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 19:12
            Tory: "Wrong. There is not a single example of the "Nb" element becoming /Ni-ip/ or /Pi-ip/ in Akkadian regardless that /p/ and /b/ are labials. EVERY SINGLE TIME Nebmaare is translitered into... more
            • Re: Nap is not NipTory, Sun Dec 18 20:51
              I wrote: There is not a single example of the "Nb" element becoming /Ni-ip/ or /Pi-ip/ in Akkadian regardless that /p/ and /b/ are labials. EVERY SINGLE TIME Nebmaare is translitered into Akkadian it ... more
              • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 21:33
                Tory: "No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples. The /n/ is not a labial and ... more
                • Neb is never Pip, everTory, Mon Dec 19 04:49
                  No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples. Ask anyway--unless you're afraid... more
                  • Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 20:36
                    Not anybody who knows anything about linguistics. "n" can be interchangeable with "b" and "p"--easily. What about that king in Manetho's Dynasty II. He is called "Binothris"--but it's actually... more
                    • Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 20:48
                      Shangrila is a modern reference to Shambhala, a mythical kingdom in Tibetan Buddhist tradition, which was sought by Eastern and Western explorers and inspired a novel by a man named Hilton. Names are ... more
                  • Nib is PipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:23
                    Marianne: "If the king who had just died as mentioned in the annals of Mursili could not have been Tutankhamun on a linguistic basis, a long line of language experts would never have assumed... more
                    • Nib is PipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:55
                      Marianne, Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". Hahaha. True. There goes every linguistic theory out the window. But its just a... more
                    • Re: Nib is PipTory, Mon Dec 19 11:09
                      Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". It's like I said, "nb" only becomes Pip in your imagination not in any attested Akkadian... more
                • re: Nap is not NipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 01:29
                  Marianne, On a linguistic basis I would assume Dakhamunzu to be Ankhesenamun, but there are some nagging problems with this, the same as those with Meritaten as Dakhamunzu. She was the latest wife of ... more
                  • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:08
                    Ian: "There is no room for her after the death of Tutankhamun, since she was immediately married to Ay after the death of Tutankhamun. " How do you know? On account of that faience ring? That ring... more
                    • re: Nap is not NipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:39
                      Hi Marianne, How do you know? On account of that faience ring? No, I know nothing about a faience ring, but on account of lunar dates, the overall relative chronological timeframe, available... more
    • Every year is accounted for — Tory, Sun Dec 18 10:38
      • Re: Every year is accounted forJoe Baker, Thu Dec 22 04:26
        Hi Tory When I gave the following example of your gaps - ô12 year reign for Neferneferuaten (highest attested date year 3), 9 year reign for Smenkhkare (highest attested date year 1 and his only... more
        • Re: Every year is accounted forTory, Thu Dec 22 11:46
          Hi Joe He [Krauss] lists only the hry-b3ḥ official for years 13-17 of Akhenaten Amarna wine-jars per Petrie, Helck, Cerny and Fairman: ḥry-k3mw in Years 15, 16, 1, [2?], 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, ... more
          • Re: Every year is accounted forIan Onvlee, Fri Dec 23 16:09
            Hi Tory, Just analizing. If I forget for a moment the single Year 1 of Smenkhkare, which is difficult to place with any certainty anyway, I come accross the following lunar based chronology: 1376/5... more
            • Re: Every year is accounted for (correction)Ian Onvlee, Fri Dec 23 16:48
              I saw that year 17 ended up at the end of year 16, which is irritating, so I correct this here: Era Horemheb hry-k3mw hry-b'h Date BC Equation 1376 BC = 1 Akhetaten = 1 Akenkheres I (12 years) 1 1 ?... more
      • Every year is accounted forIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 04:11
        Tory, Bold Red are dated hieratic dockets on wine-jars found at Akhetaten with the title of the wine overseer. Would you mind changing the bold red into blue or something. I don't see a difference... more
        • Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Tory, Mon Dec 19 09:23
          Bold Red are dated hieratic dockets on wine-jars found at Akhetaten with the title of the wine overseer. 1360 15 hry-k3mw 1359 16 hry-k3mw 1358 17 hry-k3mw 1357 18 hry-k3mw 1356 19 hry-k3mw 1355 20... more
          • Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Ian Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:24
            Hi Tory, Thanks for the interesting list and chronology. But could you perhaps be more clear about the dates. I mean. Are these all stray dates, such as the years 28 and 30 probably are, or are the... more
            • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Tory, Mon Dec 19 20:14
              Hi Ian Perhaps your browser is the problem. It works fine with safari and firefox. Send me an email with a screen shot so I can see what you are seeing on your monitor. Also, if bold red doesn't... more
              • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Ian Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 21:34
                Hi Tory, with 'doesn't work' I meant, I do see these items in red, but don't see any difference between "bold" red and normal red. It is perhaps the color red that makes it difficult to distinguish... more
                • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Tory, Mon Dec 19 21:47
                  Ok so ignore bold and just focus on the red. Everything in red is a wine-jar found in the city of Akhetaten with a year-date and the official title of the wine overseer at the time of the date. These ... more
                  • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Ian Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 22:06
                    Hi Tory, Ah, ok. Thanks. But if they are all anonymous, how did you distinguish one from the other with the same overseer title, and how did you decide when the title changed and when it changed back ... more
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