Marianne Luban
Nap is not Nip
Sun Dec 18, 2011 14:01
67.2.98.36

Tory:

"I have seen the imaginary transliteration Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-ia offered by people who really ought to know better. There is no such thing as Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-ias. The "nfr" element does not become "Naph" in Akkadian. It becomes /Na-ap/ or /Nap/ and this is because the /p/ in /xpr.w/ replaces the consonants "fr" presumably because they were not always vocalized in the pronunciation of "nfr" in the royal name. The /p/ is also a bilabial consonant and can interchange with /m/. Hence the Namḫurya in EA 55.

I would again draw attention to the fact how the vowel in the first element remains the same regardless of who is writing to Akhenaten. EA 9 does not fit into this category."

I have been polite up to now but I have to say that, Tory, you are way out of your depth here. Where is it written "Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-ias." If somebody transliterated that, then they have a lot of explaining to do. There is no "ph" in Akkadian cuneiform In the word "nfr", the final /r/ was not vocalized--no more than is the "r" in "brother" in a posh British accent. It was vocalized "nafe", becoming "Nap" in Akkadian writing--as in "Naptera" for Nefertari, the wife of Ramesses II. But this you wrote correctly:

"The /p/ is also a bilabial consonant and can interchange with /m/. Hence the Namḫurya in EA 55."

Yes, and so are /p/ and /b/ interchangeable--all the labials are, as I've written about 10 times here now. And that's why "nip, nib, and pip" all amount to "nb"--something you don't want to accept. I also repeat that, in order for "nafe" to become "nofe" in Coptic, a long "a" vowel had to be involved. It is very hard to confuse that with an "i" vowel, probably also long. How many times have you heard Obama called "Obeema" in Israel? Well? In Israel Obama is a foreign name--even in the US, come to that, as it is of African origin and not common. But somehow people manage to say the vowels right.


  • anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasTory, Sun Dec 18 13:02
    Hi Joe ḫ=p. Proof please. Not ḫ=p but /p/ transposed from /xpr.w/ (Kheperu) to replace /ḫ/. Here is the evidence for the shifting /p/. The attested transliterations of the Egyptian... more
    • Re: anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasJoe Baker, Tue Dec 20 06:20
      Hi Tory In post 12394 you showed us how you get Nipḫururia from nḫ-ḫprw-r, The last stage was via The /p/ in xprw is transposed as usual. But in EA 41 addressed to Ḫururia,... more
      • Re: anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasTory, Wed Dec 21 03:25
        Hi Joe In post 12394 you showed us how you get Nipḫururia from nḫ-ḫprw-r, The last stage was via The /p/ in xprw is transposed as usual. But in EA 41 addressed to Ḫururia,... more
        • This is getting ridiculousMarianne Luban, Wed Dec 21 08:43
          Tory: "Going back to the previous example of ayin in anx eliding with /n/. I have been saying that depending on the contemporary articulation of the name Ankh-kheperu-re, which we do not know, the... more
          • Nib > Pip is where it got ridiculousTory, Wed Dec 21 09:20
            The only consonants that elide [which means are absorbed into the next consonant] are the labials and /n/ is often replaced by /m/. But /a/? Not a chance. Ridiculous was the meaningless excerise you... more
            • Repetition Doesn't Make It SoMarianne Luban, Wed Dec 21 16:09
              Tory: "The ayin is a weak consonant and I showed plenty of examples where it falls away leaving a vowel or nothing at all. Absurd to say ayin which vanished in spoken Egyptian" It didn't vanish!... more
    • Nap is not Nip — Marianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 14:01
      • Re: Nap is not NipTory, Sun Dec 18 14:29
        I have been polite up to now but I have to say that, Tory, you are way out of your depth here. Where is it written "Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-ias." If somebody transliterated that, then they have a lot of... more
        • Re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 19:12
          Tory: "Wrong. There is not a single example of the "Nb" element becoming /Ni-ip/ or /Pi-ip/ in Akkadian regardless that /p/ and /b/ are labials. EVERY SINGLE TIME Nebmaare is translitered into... more
          • Re: Nap is not NipTory, Sun Dec 18 20:51
            I wrote: There is not a single example of the "Nb" element becoming /Ni-ip/ or /Pi-ip/ in Akkadian regardless that /p/ and /b/ are labials. EVERY SINGLE TIME Nebmaare is translitered into Akkadian it ... more
            • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 21:33
              Tory: "No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples. The /n/ is not a labial and ... more
              • Neb is never Pip, everTory, Mon Dec 19 04:49
                No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples. Ask anyway--unless you're afraid... more
                • Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 20:36
                  Not anybody who knows anything about linguistics. "n" can be interchangeable with "b" and "p"--easily. What about that king in Manetho's Dynasty II. He is called "Binothris"--but it's actually... more
                  • Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 20:48
                    Shangrila is a modern reference to Shambhala, a mythical kingdom in Tibetan Buddhist tradition, which was sought by Eastern and Western explorers and inspired a novel by a man named Hilton. Names are ... more
                    • Re: Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Tory, Mon Dec 19 21:00
                      Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO? Says every single foreign ruler who ever addressed a letter to Amenhotep III. That's who. Shangrila is a modern reference to Shambhala, a mythical kingdom in Tibetan ... more
                • Nib is PipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:23
                  Marianne: "If the king who had just died as mentioned in the annals of Mursili could not have been Tutankhamun on a linguistic basis, a long line of language experts would never have assumed... more
                  • Nib is PipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:55
                    Marianne, Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". Hahaha. True. There goes every linguistic theory out the window. But its just a... more
                  • Re: Nib is PipTory, Mon Dec 19 11:09
                    Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". It's like I said, "nb" only becomes Pip in your imagination not in any attested Akkadian... more
                    • Re: Re: Nib is PipKim Sargerson, Tue Dec 20 11:53
                      Hi all I actually tried Marianne's suggestion of "start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can." Several times. I never got "Pip". However, perhaps as interestingly, I got (a) saying it... more
                    • Re: Nib is PipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 13:49
                      Marianne: "Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip"." Tory: "It's like I said, "nb" only becomes Pip in your imagination not in any... more
              • re: Nap is not NipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 01:29
                Marianne, On a linguistic basis I would assume Dakhamunzu to be Ankhesenamun, but there are some nagging problems with this, the same as those with Meritaten as Dakhamunzu. She was the latest wife of ... more
                • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:08
                  Ian: "There is no room for her after the death of Tutankhamun, since she was immediately married to Ay after the death of Tutankhamun. " How do you know? On account of that faience ring? That ring... more
                  • re: Nap is not NipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:39
                    Hi Marianne, How do you know? On account of that faience ring? No, I know nothing about a faience ring, but on account of lunar dates, the overall relative chronological timeframe, available... more
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