Ian Onvlee
Re: Carter 001k
Sun Dec 18, 2011 22:42
82.170.121.166

Joe,

Thanks for the references. At least we would be safe to assume that Neferneferuaten = Meritaten = Dakhamunu. However, in that case, if Dakhamunzu was not lying, and Mursili was not lying or was misinformed himself, which would make us all a laughing stock, she cannot be the mother of Tutankhamun, and Akhenaten cannot be the father if he was her husband. The only solution I can think of is that Smenkhkare was the brother of Akhenaten who (perhaps secretely?) had fathered Tutankhamun with his full sister right after Akhenaten's death. If Smenkhkare had married Meritaten right after Akhenaten's death and died soon after, the husband mentioned by Dakhamunzu would not have been Akhenaten but Smenkhkare, whereas if Smenkhkare became king only after Neferneferuaten and immediately before Tutankhamun which the evidence calls for, it would remain a mystery why Smenkkhare was not immediately proclaimed king as the next royal male in line if he was a brother of Akhenaten! Even if he did father Tutankhamun and made him his successor. The only reason I can think of is that he was either abroad for some time or set aside by Meritaten as a powerful queen already ruling in his stead since her coregency with Akhenaten. This suggests that Smenkhkare was still a boy in Year 12 Akhenaten, but in Year 17 must have been at least 14-16 to be able to father children of his own with his sister, until Neferneferuaten was finally forced to give way to him as the next king in line and to become his wife. Whoever Dakhamunzu meant by a "servant" she did not want to marry also remains a mystery, since Smenkhkare could not be both a family member and just a servant. The only servant who may have been trying to force her into a marriage and may have had the power to do so would likely have been Horemheb, which would bolster Tory's theory about Horemheb being already a powerful servant since at least the death of Akhenaten. In my view Horemheb was already on the scene in Akhenaten's Year 12, and from which the mysterious 59 years of the era of Horemheb/Sethos should be counted, in which case the Year date 27 of the era of Horemheb would have been Year 1 of Ay, and the Year 52 of an unnamed king, currently associated with Ramesses II, may just as well have been Year 52 of this era of Horemheb, namely precisely in 10 Januari 1313 BC, the only possible precise date, Year 7/8 of Seti I. This would place Year 1 Ramesses II in 1309 BC, and Year 1 Akhenaten correctly in 1376 BC!

The crux of this scenario is that Neferneferuaten had a sole reign of 7 years (1360-1353 BC), followed by a coregency of perhaps 2 years with Smenkhare and died soon after, leaving Smenkhkare to reign for another year until Tutankhamun. You may call Smenkhkare a ghost but he did exist, even if he reigned only for 1 year.

Your theory of Smenkhkare being Zannanza is still being evaluated by me. If he was indeed Zannanza, he must have been killed on his way back home to visit his father after having married Dakhamunzu and been made king. This is of course not impossible, but then he could not be a brother of Akhenaten nor the father of Tutankhamun, and we would be back to the number one mystery question: whose son could Tutankhamun possibly be if not the son of Dakhamunzu or her late husband Akhenaten?

However, if we forget about the Dakhamunzu tale, which may or may not be true and is not an Egyptian tale after all, things may come into proper perspective. We have three kings in a row after Akhenaten: Neferneferuaten = Meritaten, Smenkhkare, and Tutankhamun. And without the story of Dakhamunu in our mind, Smenkhare is more likely the father of Tutankhamun than Akhenaten, for the pure reason of the order of succession, but not impossible. Meritaten would not likely be the mother, for the pure reason that she is not a full sister which the DNA results seem to suggest for the mother of Tutankhamun, but also not impossible. Whatever the case, the line of succession of the Amarna kings is securely fixed as follows:

1. Akhenaten.
2. Neferneferuaten = Meritaten.
3. Smenkhkare.
4. Tutankhamun.
5. Ay.

This corresponds precisely with Manetho's five successive Amarna kings

1. Akenkheres I (acc. to Josephus only: his [Orus's 'daughter') = Neferkheperure Akhenaten & Neferneferuaten Nefertiti.
2. Rathotis (acc. to Josephus only: "her" brother) = Ankhkheperure Meritaten = Ankh[et]kheperure Neferneferuaten.
3. Akenkheres II (acc. to Josephus only: "his" son) = Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare.
4. Akenkheres III (acc. to Josephus only: "his" son) = Nebkheperure Tutankhamun.
5. Harmais (acc. to Josephus only: "his" son) = Kheperkheperure Ay.

Since we know that Ay was not a son of Tutankhamun at all, we cannot take Josephus's designations seriously either. But it does suggest that the original author, whether Manetho of Josephus alone, had some knowledge that one of these five kings was a women, a king's daughter, and one of these kings was a brother, but these two were misplaced. At least the succession of these five kings securely fixes Orus to be nobody else than Amenhotep III, especially with his reign length being minimally 36 years 5 months, corresponding best to Amenhotep III's reign length of 38-39 years. This is further bolsteren by Josephus's story of Osarsheph in which it is clear that Amenophis is in fact the son of his predecessor called Orus and thus must be Amenophis IV, whose reign was infected by a period of chaos for 13 years, being the Amarna period from his Year 5 to 17 until his death. The figure of Sethos was then the military leader Horemheb who came down from Nubia or Thebes or wherever he had lived from his 5th to 18th year to do justice to the cause of Thebes and the Amun priests (which would give him a good chance to become the next king himself) and to procecute and/or pull down Akhenaten in Year 12, thus forcing the heretic king to go into exile, from which he or perhaps more likely his later successors had been counting the 59 years of Horemheb. It would certainly explain all those strange stray Year dates up to a Year 30 found at Akhetaten. The Year 30 would indeed be the last stray year date at Akhetaten if Horemheb became king in 1335 BC and immediately started to pull down the city of Akhetaten. And so Year 52 would be 1314/1313 BC and Ramesses II accedes in 1309 BC. This chronology has no gaps such as those in all current chronological proposals.

The whole Amarna period then dates to 1372-1335 BC, corresponding also quite nicely to the radiocarbon dates for this era.

A point to remember is that if the name Akenkheres is derived from at least the prenomen Ankhkheperure, which seems the most likely one , then having three of these would mean that the first one had been confused with Neferkheperure as well as with Nefertiti as the first of the three Neferneferuatens. This means that Manetho was thinking of Orus's (= Amenhotep III's) daughter-in-law Nefertiti instead of Akhenaten, Meritaten or Smenkhkare! Confusion had emerged, the names have been misplaced, and the relationships became mixed up and were eventually abandoned by the later commentators. Only the number of kings and perhaps some of the reign lengths remained correct.

Regards,
Ian

  • Re: Carter 001kJoe Baker, Sun Dec 18 07:40
    Hi Tory and Ian So if Carter 001k is mentioning Meritaten with titles "King Ankhkeperure Neferneferuaten" and "Chief Queen Meritaten" then she must have become Pharaoh AFTER her mention in Merire... more
    • Re: Carter 001k — Ian Onvlee, Sun Dec 18 22:42
      • Re: Carter 001kJoe Baker, Thu Dec 22 08:39
        Hi Ian Your theory of Smenkhkare being Zannanza is still being evaluated by me. If he was indeed Zannanza, he must have been killed on his way back home to visit his father after having married... more
        • Ankhkheperure at UgaritGabolde Marc, Sat Apr 28 05:07
          Dear member of ANECF To complement the informations concerning king Ankhkheperure, I just published an article (in french) devoted to an exceptionnal ivory plaque with Ankhkheperure's cartouche found ... more
          • Akhenaten as Nephers˘phris in a Byzantine sourceMarc Gabolde, Tue May 29 03:44
            Dear member of the ANECF Dear colleagues, Please, find a link for an article (author Fabien Hertier, Montpellier) devoted to a surprising mention of Akhenaten in a Byzantine encyclopaedia from the... more
            • Merci Beaucoup Dr. Marc/The Article's English Version!Waael ebn Fekry, Thu May 31 20:38
              Respectable Dr./ Marc Gabolde, Merci beaucoup pour cette "Cadeau Egyptologique" fantastique! It is definitely an important addition to the data-base of my research on the Late 18th Dynasty Period,... more
            • re: Akhenaten as Nephers˘phris in a Byzantine sourceMarianne Luban, Wed May 30 09:40
              Dear Marc, I cannot access the article--can you summarize it? But does Nephers˘phris really amount to Neferkheperure even in the Northern Egyptian dialect--or just Neferkheperre? My research into... more
              • Nephers˘phris AkhenatenMarc Gabolde, Thu May 31 08:53
                Dear Marianne, Thank you very much for posting and advice. If you need a pdf copy of F. Hertierĺs article, I can send it in attachment with the help of a valid e-mail address. If you have some... more
                • re: Nephers˘phris AkhenatenMarianne Luban, Thu May 31 17:09
                  Dear Marc, I'll try to access the paper again, but first I'll respond to some of your philological concerns. You wrote: ôConcerning the identity of Nephers˘phris, it seems that Akhenaten fits better... more
                  • Nephers˘phris AkhenatenAnonymous, Fri Jun 1 06:02
                    Dear Marianne, MG original ôConcerning the identity of Nephers˘phris, it seems that Akhenaten fits better with the text of Suidas due to the ill reputation of that king. The other possible king would ... more
                    • re: Nephers˘phris AkhenatenMarianne Luban, Fri Jun 1 20:23
                      MG Original ôThe fact that /p/ disappears in xpr.w from the name of Akhenaten in the Amarna Letters is not as embarassing as you suggest. This is probably the result of the /p/ or /b/ of the first... more
                  • re: Nephers˘phris AkhenatenMarianne Luban, Thu May 31 18:18
                    I have read the brief paper but am skeptical about the prenomen of Akhenaten being represented here: Headword:... more
              • re: Akhenaten as Nephers˘phris in a Byzantine sourceMarianne Luban, Wed May 30 12:57
                Oh--I left out the most important part of what I was trying to say, which is--where is a king named Neferkheperre? I don't know of one. However, I am also skeptical of the name "Nephers˘phris" on... more
        • Re: Carter 001kIan Onvlee, Sun Dec 25 13:24
          Hi Joe, Thanks for the references. Texts and languages are not my strongest. And thanks for your last post which reconfirms that the confusion you see in Manetho is of your own making. Along with... more
        • Re: Carter 001kMarianne Luban, Fri Dec 23 12:14
          Regarding the letter here: http://web.archive.org/web/20010426040650/www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/Ay.html I think it is not very likely that the queen who wrote to the Hittites can have... more
      • Manetho mid-late 18th dynastyJoe Baker, Tue Dec 20 07:18
        Hi Ian I am way behind in reading many of these posts. So rather than answer this one I want to lay some groundwork and return to an old post I began to write to counter one of your posts but never... more
        • Manetho mid-late 18th dynastyIan Onvlee, Wed Dec 21 07:54
          Hi Joe, Thanks for responding to an old post. I thought nobody was interested in the topic. I agree with you on certain points, as far as your philosophy goes, but it is mostly a matter of how we... more
    • anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasTory, Sun Dec 18 13:02
      Hi Joe ḫ=p. Proof please. Not ḫ=p but /p/ transposed from /xpr.w/ (Kheperu) to replace /ḫ/. Here is the evidence for the shifting /p/. The attested transliterations of the Egyptian... more
      • Re: anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasJoe Baker, Tue Dec 20 06:20
        Hi Tory In post 12394 you showed us how you get Nipḫururia from Ĺnḫ-ḫprw-rĹ, The last stage was via The /p/ in xprw is transposed as usual. But in EA 41 addressed to Ḫururia,... more
        • Re: anx-xprw-ra is NipḫururiasTory, Wed Dec 21 03:25
          Hi Joe In post 12394 you showed us how you get Nipḫururia from Ĺnḫ-ḫprw-rĹ, The last stage was via The /p/ in xprw is transposed as usual. But in EA 41 addressed to Ḫururia,... more
          • This is getting ridiculousMarianne Luban, Wed Dec 21 08:43
            Tory: "Going back to the previous example of ayin in anx eliding with /n/. I have been saying that depending on the contemporary articulation of the name Ankh-kheperu-re, which we do not know, the... more
            • Nib > Pip is where it got ridiculousTory, Wed Dec 21 09:20
              The only consonants that elide [which means are absorbed into the next consonant] are the labials and /n/ is often replaced by /m/. But /a/? Not a chance. Ridiculous was the meaningless excerise you... more
              • Repetition Doesn't Make It SoMarianne Luban, Wed Dec 21 16:09
                Tory: "The ayin is a weak consonant and I showed plenty of examples where it falls away leaving a vowel or nothing at all. Absurd to say ayin which vanished in spoken Egyptian" It didn't vanish!... more
      • Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 14:01
        Tory: "I have seen the imaginary transliteration Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-iaÜ offered by people who really ought to know better. There is no such thing as Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-ias. The "nfr" element does... more
        • Re: Nap is not NipTory, Sun Dec 18 14:29
          I have been polite up to now but I have to say that, Tory, you are way out of your depth here. Where is it written "Naph-ḫu-ru-ri-ias." If somebody transliterated that, then they have a lot of... more
          • Re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 19:12
            Tory: "Wrong. There is not a single example of the "Nb" element becoming /Ni-ip/ or /Pi-ip/ in Akkadian regardless that /p/ and /b/ are labials. EVERY SINGLE TIME Nebmaare is translitered into... more
            • Re: Nap is not NipTory, Sun Dec 18 20:51
              I wrote: There is not a single example of the "Nb" element becoming /Ni-ip/ or /Pi-ip/ in Akkadian regardless that /p/ and /b/ are labials. EVERY SINGLE TIME Nebmaare is translitered into Akkadian it ... more
              • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 21:33
                Tory: "No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples. The /n/ is not a labial and ... more
                • Neb is never Pip, everTory, Mon Dec 19 04:49
                  No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples. Ask anyway--unless you're afraid... more
                  • Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 20:36
                    Not anybody who knows anything about linguistics. "n" can be interchangeable with "b" and "p"--easily. What about that king in Manetho's Dynasty II. He is called "Binothris"--but it's actually... more
                    • Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 20:48
                      Shangrila is a modern reference to Shambhala, a mythical kingdom in Tibetan Buddhist tradition, which was sought by Eastern and Western explorers and inspired a novel by a man named Hilton. Names are ... more
                  • Nib is PipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:23
                    Marianne: "If the king who had just died as mentioned in the annals of Mursili could not have been Tutankhamun on a linguistic basis, a long line of language experts would never have assumed... more
                    • Nib is PipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:55
                      Marianne, Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". Hahaha. True. There goes every linguistic theory out the window. But its just a... more
                    • Re: Nib is PipTory, Mon Dec 19 11:09
                      Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". It's like I said, "nb" only becomes Pip in your imagination not in any attested Akkadian... more
                • re: Nap is not NipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 01:29
                  Marianne, On a linguistic basis I would assume Dakhamunzu to be Ankhesenamun, but there are some nagging problems with this, the same as those with Meritaten as Dakhamunzu. She was the latest wife of ... more
                  • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:08
                    Ian: "There is no room for her after the death of Tutankhamun, since she was immediately married to Ay after the death of Tutankhamun. " How do you know? On account of that faience ring? That ring... more
                    • re: Nap is not NipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:39
                      Hi Marianne, How do you know? On account of that faience ring? No, I know nothing about a faience ring, but on account of lunar dates, the overall relative chronological timeframe, available... more
    • Every year is accounted forTory, Sun Dec 18 10:38
      Bold Red are dated hieratic dockets on wine-jars found at Akhetaten with the title of the wine overseer. 1360 15 hry-k3mw 1359 16 hry-k3mw 1358 17 hry-k3mw 1357 18 hry-k3mw 1356 19 hry-k3mw 1355 20... more
      • Re: Every year is accounted forJoe Baker, Thu Dec 22 04:26
        Hi Tory When I gave the following example of your gaps - ô12 year reign for Neferneferuaten (highest attested date year 3), 9 year reign for Smenkhkare (highest attested date year 1 and his only... more
        • Re: Every year is accounted forTory, Thu Dec 22 11:46
          Hi Joe He [Krauss] lists only the hry-b3ḥ official for years 13-17 of Akhenaten Amarna wine-jars per Petrie, Helck, Cerny and Fairman: ḥry-k3mw in Years 15, 16, 1, [2?], 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, ... more
          • Re: Every year is accounted forIan Onvlee, Fri Dec 23 16:09
            Hi Tory, Just analizing. If I forget for a moment the single Year 1 of Smenkhkare, which is difficult to place with any certainty anyway, I come accross the following lunar based chronology: 1376/5... more
            • Re: Every year is accounted for (correction)Ian Onvlee, Fri Dec 23 16:48
              I saw that year 17 ended up at the end of year 16, which is irritating, so I correct this here: Era Horemheb hry-k3mw hry-b'h Date BC Equation 1376 BC = 1 Akhetaten = 1 Akenkheres I (12 years) 1 1 ?... more
      • Every year is accounted forIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 04:11
        Tory, Bold Red are dated hieratic dockets on wine-jars found at Akhetaten with the title of the wine overseer. Would you mind changing the bold red into blue or something. I don't see a difference... more
        • Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Tory, Mon Dec 19 09:23
          Bold Red are dated hieratic dockets on wine-jars found at Akhetaten with the title of the wine overseer. 1360 15 hry-k3mw 1359 16 hry-k3mw 1358 17 hry-k3mw 1357 18 hry-k3mw 1356 19 hry-k3mw 1355 20... more
          • Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Ian Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:24
            Hi Tory, Thanks for the interesting list and chronology. But could you perhaps be more clear about the dates. I mean. Are these all stray dates, such as the years 28 and 30 probably are, or are the... more
            • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Tory, Mon Dec 19 20:14
              Hi Ian Perhaps your browser is the problem. It works fine with safari and firefox. Send me an email with a screen shot so I can see what you are seeing on your monitor. Also, if bold red doesn't... more
              • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Ian Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 21:34
                Hi Tory, with 'doesn't work' I meant, I do see these items in red, but don't see any difference between "bold" red and normal red. It is perhaps the color red that makes it difficult to distinguish... more
                • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Tory, Mon Dec 19 21:47
                  Ok so ignore bold and just focus on the red. Everything in red is a wine-jar found in the city of Akhetaten with a year-date and the official title of the wine overseer at the time of the date. These ... more
                  • Re: Every Year Accounted For (attempt 2)Ian Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 22:06
                    Hi Tory, Ah, ok. Thanks. But if they are all anonymous, how did you distinguish one from the other with the same overseer title, and how did you decide when the title changed and when it changed back ... more
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