Ian Onvlee
re: Nap is not Nip
Mon Dec 19, 2011 01:29
82.170.121.166

Marianne,

On a linguistic basis I would assume Dakhamunzu to be Ankhesenamun, but there are some nagging problems with this, the same as those with Meritaten as Dakhamunzu. She was the latest wife of Akhenaten and if so also would have been left without a son by him. There is no room for her after the death of Tutankhamun, since she was immediately married to Ay after the death of Tutankhamun. So the episode of Dakhamunzu must have occurred earlier, meaning also that she was already renamed Ankhesenamun before Tutankhamun became the next king. If so, then where was Smenkhkare all these years? Smenkhkare does not leave room for her either, since he was immediately followed by Tutankhamun. If she was Dakhamunzu, Meritaten was not. Then who was the ruling queen Neferneferuaten prior to Smenkhkare, or were both Meritaten and Ankhesenamun ruling, perhaps the former at Akhetaten, the latter at Thebes, thus dividing the kingdom or its administration among the two? In that case there would be room for Ankhesenamun to claim not to have a son from her husband and Smenkhkare would not necessarily have been regarded a possible contendent to the throne of her kingdom, since she had become the Queen of the kingdom of Amun, while Meritaten remained the Queen of the kingdom of Aten followed by Smenkhkare. Eventually Tutankhamun was united with Ankhesenamun, which saved the kingdom from remaining divided. Let me propose the following most likely chronology:


Date BC Kingdom of Amun ------------------------ Kingdom of Aten
1578 BC Amosis I
1553 BC Amenhotep I
1532 BC Thuthmosis I
1519 BC Thuthmosis II
1504 BC Thuthmosis III
1453 BC Amenhotep II
1423 BC Thuthmosis IV
1413 BC Amenhotep III
1376 BC Amenhotep IV ----------------------------- (Time of Akenkheres I! Josephus: Chaos of Osarseph/Moses begins?)
1372 BC ------------------------------------------ Year 5 Akhenaten, beginning of Amarna Era
1365 BC Ankhesenpaaten? --------- 1 Horemheb ----- Year 12 Akhenaten, Coregency Meritaten (Possible real time of Akenkheres I! Josephus: Horemheb/Sethos restores order? Osarseph/Moses flees to Jerusalem? or Chaos of Osarseph/Moses actually began now and Akhenaten exiled/fled to Nubia?)
1360 BC Ankhesenpaaten ---------- 6 Horemheb ----- Year 17 Akhenaten, Year 1 Neferneferuaten/Meritaten (Time of Rathotis!)
1353 BC Ankhesenamun/Dakhamunzu - 13 Horemheb ---- Smenkhkare & Meritaten (Time of Akenkheres II! Josephus: Horemheb/Sethos restores order? Osarseph/Moses flees to Jerusalem! Eusebius: Moses leads the Jews out of Egypt!)
Zannanza killed -------------------------- The Jews/Moses killed a pharaoh (Smenkhkare? Zannanza? first-born?)
1350 BC Ankhesenamun/Dhakamunzu - 16 Horemheb ---- Tutankhamun (Time of Akenkheres III!)
1339 BC Ankhesenamun/Dakhamunzu - 27 Horemheb ---- Ay (Time of Harmais!)
1335 BC Horemheb as king -------- 31-44 Horemheb (Manetho's mistaken figures Ramesses/Harmesses/Aegyptus for 68 years as per Josephus & Eusebius)
1322 BC Year 1 Ramesses I ------- 44-46 Horemheb
1321 BC Year 2 Ramesses I ------- 45 Horemheb (Manetho's mistaken Year 1 of Amenophath as per Africanus)
1320 BC Seti I ------------------ 46-57 Horemheb
1315 BC Year 6 Seti I ----------- 51 Horemheb (Manetho's mistaken end of Amenophath & end of Dynasty 18 as per Africanus)
1314/13 Year 7/8 Seti I --------- 52 Horemheb (Manetho's mistaken 51 years for Sethos/Seti I as per Africanus)
1310/09 Year 11/12 Seti I ------ 56 Horemheb (Manetho's mistaken 55 years for Sethos/Seti I as per Eusebius)
1309 BC Year 1 Ramesses II ------ 57 Horemheb
1308 BC Year 2 Ramesses II ------ 58 Horemheb
1307 BC Year 3 Ramesses II ------ 59 Horemheb/Sethos as per Josephus
1292 BC Year 18 Ramesses II (Mes inscription)
1267 BC Year 43 Ramesses II (Manetho's mistaken Year 1 Ammenophis as per Josephus and Eusebius)
1243 BC Year 1 Merenptah
1233 BC Year 1 Seti II & Amenmesse
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1227 BC Year 1 Siptah & Taswosret = 68 years Harmesses/Ramesses = Aegyptus + 40 years Amenophis (acc. to Eusebius) since 1 Horemheb as king.
1221 BC Year 1 Tawosret
1213 BC Year 8 Tawosret, Year 1 of double 7 years Interregnum with Irsu + [? nobody]
1199 BC Year 1 Setnakht
1195 BC Year 1 Ramesses III


Regards,
Ian


  • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 21:33
    Tory: "No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples. The /n/ is not a labial and ... more
    • Neb is never Pip, everTory, Mon Dec 19 04:49
      No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples. Ask anyway--unless you're afraid... more
      • Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 20:36
        Not anybody who knows anything about linguistics. "n" can be interchangeable with "b" and "p"--easily. What about that king in Manetho's Dynasty II. He is called "Binothris"--but it's actually... more
        • Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 20:48
          Shangrila is a modern reference to Shambhala, a mythical kingdom in Tibetan Buddhist tradition, which was sought by Eastern and Western explorers and inspired a novel by a man named Hilton. Names are ... more
          • Re: Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Tory, Mon Dec 19 21:00
            Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO? Says every single foreign ruler who ever addressed a letter to Amenhotep III. That's who. Shangrila is a modern reference to Shambhala, a mythical kingdom in Tibetan ... more
            • Re: Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Tue Dec 20 10:11
              Marianne Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO? Tory: "Says every single foreign ruler who ever addressed a letter to Amenhotep III. That's who." Are you trying to say that "Piphurrias" is a reference to... more
              • Re: Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Tory, Tue Dec 20 11:14
                Are you trying to say that "Piphurrias" is a reference to Amenhotep III? I believe I was crystal clear. None of the examples we have for "Nb" in the throne name of Amenhotep III ever become Pip in... more
                • Re: Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Tue Dec 20 12:21
                  Marianne: "Are you trying to say that "Piphurrias" is a reference to Amenhotep III?" Tory: "I believe I was crystal clear. None of the examples we have for "Nb" in the throne name of Amenhotep III... more
      • Nib is PipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:23
        Marianne: "If the king who had just died as mentioned in the annals of Mursili could not have been Tutankhamun on a linguistic basis, a long line of language experts would never have assumed... more
        • Nib is PipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:55
          Marianne, Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". Hahaha. True. There goes every linguistic theory out the window. But its just a... more
        • Re: Nib is PipTory, Mon Dec 19 11:09
          Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". It's like I said, "nb" only becomes Pip in your imagination not in any attested Akkadian... more
          • Re: Re: Nib is PipKim Sargerson, Tue Dec 20 11:53
            Hi all I actually tried Marianne's suggestion of "start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can." Several times. I never got "Pip". However, perhaps as interestingly, I got (a) saying it... more
            • Re: Re: Nib is PipTory, Wed Dec 21 05:51
              I actually tried Marianne's suggestion of "start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can." Several times. I never got "Pip". I never did either. But give /m/ or "Im" a go. I find it... more
              • Re: Re: Nib is PipIan Onvlee, Wed Dec 21 08:01
                Hi guys, I actually tried Marianne's suggestion of "start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can." Several times. I never got "Pip". I never did either. But give /m/ or "Im" a go. I find ... more
                • Re: Nib is PipMarianne Luban, Wed Dec 21 16:17
                  Ian: "You guys are crazy" If I were a man who thought everything in ancient Egypt had to be regulated by the moon, including when people began their reigns--I wouldn't cast stones. The point is--if... more
                  • Re: Nib is PipIan Onvlee, Sun Dec 25 14:08
                    Hi Marianne, Yes, for the ancient Egyptians and even Greeks and Jews, following lunations was of the utmost daily and monthly and yearly religious importance for a correct spiritual connection with... more
          • Re: Nib is PipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 13:49
            Marianne: "Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip"." Tory: "It's like I said, "nb" only becomes Pip in your imagination not in any... more
            • Re: Pip is not NbTory, Mon Dec 19 20:45
              Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". It's like I said, "nb" only becomes Pip in your imagination not in any attested Akkadian... more
              • Re: Pip is not NbMarc Gabolde, Fri Jun 1 08:35
                Hi Tory, Just few words for the discussion about Pip/Nip/Nib/Nap which I posted today in another discussion on ANECF concerning the king Nephers˘phris known from the Suidas Byzantine Encyclopaedia.... more
                • Re: Pip is not NbTory Thorpe, Fri Jun 1 10:34
                  Hi Marc You wrote: For cuneiform Nip- as indisputable and viable alternative way to transcribe Egyptian nfr... You will not find me in disagreement with this in any of my remarks on this or other... more
                  • Niphururiria againMarc Gabolde, Fri Jun 1 16:54
                    Dear Tory, Jared MILLER, Hittitologist, in his ź Amarna Age Chronology and the Identity of Nibḫururiya in the Light of a Newly Reconstructed Hittite Text ╗, Altorientalische Forschungen 34... more
                    • Re: Niphururiria againTory Thorpe, Fri Jun 1 17:04
                      Dear Marc I would still want to see the Akkadian text of EA 9. NIP and NIB are not written exactly the same way in Akkadian cuneiform. That is not true. Miller is probably making small errors here.... more
                  • NiphururiiaMarc Gabolde, Fri Jun 1 11:44
                    Dear Tory, Only few books available on my desk, however, concerning EA 9,1 : Moran gives NiBḫurrereya, but Knudtzon I, p. 88, gives ni-ip-ḫu-ur-ri-ri-ia, R.S. Hess, Amarna Personal Names, ... more
                    • Re: NiphururiiaTory Thorpe, Fri Jun 1 16:39
                      Dear Marc Well it cannot be both NIB and NIP in EA 9, so I would very much like to know who is telling the truth. I would know who if I had access to the cuneiform text. Maybe someone does and can... more
            • Re: Nib is PipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 16:10
              Marianne says: Look, these are writing mistakes on the part of foreigners--but there is no one that could possibly match except nb-xprw-re Tutankhamun. But Marianne, by the same token you deny any... more
    • re: Nap is not Nip — Ian Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 01:29
      • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:08
        Ian: "There is no room for her after the death of Tutankhamun, since she was immediately married to Ay after the death of Tutankhamun. " How do you know? On account of that faience ring? That ring... more
        • re: Nap is not NipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:39
          Hi Marianne, How do you know? On account of that faience ring? No, I know nothing about a faience ring, but on account of lunar dates, the overall relative chronological timeframe, available... more
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