Marianne Luban
Repetition Doesn't Make It So
Wed Dec 21, 2011 16:09
67.2.98.36

Tory:

"The ayin is a weak consonant and I showed plenty of examples where it falls away leaving a vowel or nothing at all. Absurd to say ayin which vanished in spoken Egyptian"

It didn't vanish! "anx" became "onkh" or "ankh" in Coptic. Your examples! The less said about them the better. Was Egyptian /a/ really ever an ayin? It was used to write Semitic ayin in the orthography, but that may have been a case of "best suited". After all, Egyptian /A/ was used to write Semitic "a"--but /A/ was never an aleph, was used to write Semitic "r" in the Middle Kingdom orthography.
Later on, /A/ became a place holder for a vowel sound. It was a "semi-vowel" by the New Kingdom. The closet thing Egyptian had to a glottal stop was /i/. My personal opinion is that /a/ was no ayin but some kind of nasal sound. That's why wsr-mAat-ra" became "Ozymandias"--because of that nasal /a/ and the tapped /r/ in "ra". "Very" becoming "veddy" in posh British English is an example of a tapped "r". If /a/ had really been an ayin, it seems to me it would have been retained from Demotic as a separate sign that could not be found in the Greek alphabet and not just approximated by one or another Greek vowel. But nobody really knows one way or the other.


cannot elide with /n/ but /p/ can interchange with the /n/ in "nb" (zero examples) and /p/ cannot shift position by metathesis but elides with the /r/ in xpr. Utter nonsense. I've been polite but you do no know what ayin is."

If i can say it, I know what it is. Tory, this linguistic balderdash is not going to help your theory--anywhere. Anomalies of pronunciation can easily occur. The annals of Mursili were not written by him. We do not know anything regarding the literacy of Hittite princes but the norm for kings was to employ scribes. In fact, that's how copies of anything were made--by one person dictating to several scribes. But even with one, there is many a slip between the lip and the pen. Because of the ear. Now Mursili, being who he was, surely knew how to pronounce "nb-xprw-ra" as well as any Hittite ever could. But how well was that? Or he may have had a cold while dictating that stopped up his nose or the scribe had the cold, which stopped up his ears--and something else got written. There's an excuse for writing "Piphurryas" but no excuse at all for willfully ignoring the obvious and the sensible explanations of others in favor of ones own biased ideas bolstered by more convoluted thinking. I, personally--and pay attention here, Tory--don't give a rat's patoot who Dahamunza was. All I know is linguistics--and that the best fit to the name of her recently deceased husband is "nb-xprw-ra".

  • Nib > Pip is where it got ridiculousTory, Wed Dec 21 09:20
    The only consonants that elide [which means are absorbed into the next consonant] are the labials and /n/ is often replaced by /m/. But /a/? Not a chance. Ridiculous was the meaningless excerise you... more
    • Repetition Doesn't Make It So — Marianne Luban, Wed Dec 21 16:09
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