Joe Baker
Re: Carter 001k
Thu Dec 22, 2011 08:39
218.215.202.145

Hi Ian

Your theory of Smenkhkare being Zannanza is still being evaluated by me. If he was indeed Zannanza, he must have been killed on his way back home to visit his father after having married Dakhamunzu and been made king.

Not my theory but Gabolde’s, who has probably read every single inscription available from this period. As for Zannanza being killed while traveling back to Hatti - this is impossible as the text uses a verb whose base form implies direction away not towards Ḫatti. Indeed this particular text has been used to argue that Zannanza was killed while on the way to Egypt, but the text shows it is just as likely that he reached Egypt before being killed. The problem comes down to one word in Hittite (maḫḫan). The relevant text is found in the second version of Mursili’s plague text

nan maḫḫan  peḫuter             nan-kan kuenir
and when/as they-led-him-there and they killed him

maḫḫan introduces a temporal clause and can have the meaning “when” or “as”. If one uses the meaning “as” the text can be meant to say it happened while he was being escorted there (and this is how Goetze originally translated it). However if one translates maḫḫan as “when” then it can be taken that he did make it to “there” (i.e. Egypt - as per Lebrun’s translation). BTW the verb peḫuter contains a stem which implies moving away from or going to there. It is pe-eda = “there-sent/led (away) to” (As opposed to its counterpart which implies moving towards and/or coming to here. It is u-eda = “here-brought/led (back) to”).

Also the letter exchange between Šuppiluliuma and Neferneferuaten seems to imply that Zannanza made Egypt. (Unfortunately the letter, being preserved only in Hittite, does not differentiate between masculine and feminine. If it had been written in Akkadian many words would have shown differentiation between masculine and feminine. The fragmentary Hittite draft, as found in the literature, has been heavily restored on the assumption it is a letter between two male kings - usually Šuppiluliuma and Ay or (more recently) Šuppiluliuma and Smenkhkare).

This draft represents the earliest documents we have of the event. You can find it at
http://web.archive.org/web/20010426040650/www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/Ay.html
and a German version at
http://www.meritneith.de/dachamunzu-korrespondenz.htm
Relevant phrases whose primary interpretation could mean that Zannanza reached Egypt include Šuppilulima assertion that the Egyptian ruler should have sent his son back home and his allegation that the Egyptian ruler might have killed him, even though that ruler declare that they had personally done him no harm to him. Also another document reports that it was Egyptian messengers themselves which reported the death of Zannanza to the Hittites.

And thanks for your last post which reconfirms that the confusion you see in Manetho is of your own making. Along with ideas such as Akhenaten withdrew from the public, went into exile, etc., (shades of Velikovsky), long unattested reigns, co-regencies, etc.

Regards Joe


  • Re: Carter 001kIan Onvlee, Sun Dec 18 22:42
    Joe, Thanks for the references. At least we would be safe to assume that Neferneferuaten = Meritaten = Dakhamunu. However, in that case, if Dakhamunzu was not lying, and Mursili was not lying or was... more
    • Re: Carter 001k — Joe Baker, Thu Dec 22 08:39
      • Ankhkheperure at UgaritGabolde Marc, Sat Apr 28 05:07
        Dear member of ANECF To complement the informations concerning king Ankhkheperure, I just published an article (in french) devoted to an exceptionnal ivory plaque with Ankhkheperure's cartouche found ... more
        • Akhenaten as Nephersôphris in a Byzantine sourceMarc Gabolde, Tue May 29 03:44
          Dear member of the ANECF Dear colleagues, Please, find a link for an article (author Fabien Hertier, Montpellier) devoted to a surprising mention of Akhenaten in a Byzantine encyclopaedia from the... more
          • Merci Beaucoup Dr. Marc/The Article's English Version!Waael ebn Fekry, Thu May 31 20:38
            Respectable Dr./ Marc Gabolde, Merci beaucoup pour cette "Cadeau Egyptologique" fantastique! It is definitely an important addition to the data-base of my research on the Late 18th Dynasty Period,... more
          • re: Akhenaten as Nephersôphris in a Byzantine sourceMarianne Luban, Wed May 30 09:40
            Dear Marc, I cannot access the article--can you summarize it? But does Nephersôphris really amount to Neferkheperure even in the Northern Egyptian dialect--or just Neferkheperre? My research into... more
            • Nephersôphris AkhenatenMarc Gabolde, Thu May 31 08:53
              Dear Marianne, Thank you very much for posting and advice. If you need a pdf copy of F. Hertier’s article, I can send it in attachment with the help of a valid e-mail address. If you have some... more
              • re: Nephersôphris AkhenatenMarianne Luban, Thu May 31 17:09
                Dear Marc, I'll try to access the paper again, but first I'll respond to some of your philological concerns. You wrote: “Concerning the identity of Nephersôphris, it seems that Akhenaten fits better... more
                • Nephersôphris AkhenatenAnonymous, Fri Jun 1 06:02
                  Dear Marianne, MG original “Concerning the identity of Nephersôphris, it seems that Akhenaten fits better with the text of Suidas due to the ill reputation of that king. The other possible king would ... more
                  • re: Nephersôphris AkhenatenMarianne Luban, Fri Jun 1 20:23
                    MG Original “The fact that /p/ disappears in xpr.w from the name of Akhenaten in the Amarna Letters is not as embarassing as you suggest. This is probably the result of the /p/ or /b/ of the first... more
                • re: Nephersôphris AkhenatenMarianne Luban, Thu May 31 18:18
                  I have read the brief paper but am skeptical about the prenomen of Akhenaten being represented here: Headword:... more
            • re: Akhenaten as Nephersôphris in a Byzantine sourceMarianne Luban, Wed May 30 12:57
              Oh--I left out the most important part of what I was trying to say, which is--where is a king named Neferkheperre? I don't know of one. However, I am also skeptical of the name "Nephersôphris" on... more
      • Re: Carter 001kIan Onvlee, Sun Dec 25 13:24
        Hi Joe, Thanks for the references. Texts and languages are not my strongest. And thanks for your last post which reconfirms that the confusion you see in Manetho is of your own making. Along with... more
      • Re: Carter 001kMarianne Luban, Fri Dec 23 12:14
        Regarding the letter here: http://web.archive.org/web/20010426040650/www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/Ay.html I think it is not very likely that the queen who wrote to the Hittites can have... more
    • Manetho mid-late 18th dynastyJoe Baker, Tue Dec 20 07:18
      Hi Ian I am way behind in reading many of these posts. So rather than answer this one I want to lay some groundwork and return to an old post I began to write to counter one of your posts but never... more
      • Manetho mid-late 18th dynastyIan Onvlee, Wed Dec 21 07:54
        Hi Joe, Thanks for responding to an old post. I thought nobody was interested in the topic. I agree with you on certain points, as far as your philosophy goes, but it is mostly a matter of how we... more
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