>>I don't believe Krauss nor Dodson to be ... unaware of any of this.<<
If this would be the only problem.
In fact, we have only a slightest similarity of names. But we see Messuwy adding the royal uraeus afterwards to his portraits in Amida. Would he be identical with Amenmesse we would expect on good grounds from Messuwy to add also his newly adopted royal name Amenmesse, etc. and cartouches to his own portrait and not only the uraeus. He doesnīt.
Was this guy too shy to bring enough evidence for Dodsonīs theory? He wasnīt so shy to replace the cartouches of Merneptah with his own in Merneptahīs reliefs. Were is the difficulty for Messuwy to add his own royal cartouches to his own portrait, he allegedly already completed with an uraeus as a sign of his royality and revolt?
Dodson assumes the power basis of Amenmesse was in the South - Amida was probably the point where his rebellion ought to have begun and where he would have adopted the name of Amenmesse as pharaoh. Why do we lack any association of Amenmesse with his "own" portrait as Messuwy and with Amida specially? Indolence? Boycotting Dodson? :-)
My impression is, Dodson and Krauss havenīt done a full job in this case and set everything on a single hypothesis concerning the spread of the revolt of Amenmesse. Their reasoning could have been as quick as superficial: if Amenmesse revolted in the north and could spread his influence widely into the south - were could Sethos or Merneptah still hold a foot in Egypt? Thus they concluded, Merneptah or Sethos were those based in the north and Amenmesse was based in the south. How could they envision that either Merneptah or Sethos as possible parallel kings to Amenmesse could have lost every foothold of Egypt? Even if Manetho, Chairemon, Apion, etc. state this fact very clearly. Apion especially is so meticulous in his description of a new solar clock introduced by his Moses/Amenmesse in Heliopolis - he must have seen it personally in Heliopolis. The earliest solar clock of the model described by Apion ever found, involving a representation of the solar boat at its basis (as described by Apion) dates to the very reign of Merneptah, whose cartouche it holds, and was found in Gezer by Macalister. Be sure, these people, even if they lied between their teeth - they knew exactly the historical events about which they wrote. Unlike Dodson and Krauss.
Concerning the taking of the Israelites as prisoners by Amenophis/Amenophat alias Merneptah please read your Manetho. Merneptah displayed not without reason a surprising interest in the tragic story of Seqenenere. The two-brother tale written for prince Sethos about an Asiatic Bata replacing the Egyptian line of pharaohs on the throne, was also quite weird and unpatriotic without any historical background. Later Egyptians saw this similarly and negatively equated Bata with Seth at a late time point as Seth was regarded as a highly unpopular Asiatic god.
>>As I said before, the evacuation of Hattusa apparently happened just before agricultural squatters moved in (they don't require standing armies). The material culture they brought with them, in order for your theory to be correct, should line up with your date for the annihilation of Suppiluliuma.<<
Why should this be so? I suppose the purpose of the conquest of the Hittite empire was not for settling a couple of agricultural squatters in an abandoned city. I hope you are not kidding. :-) This is no argument, there are numberless cities in the East, which were never again or only much later resettled either after their destruction or abandonment. Besides, what makes the difference between an abandoned city or and a conquered city from the viewpoint of a potential "agricultural" squatter? Is it potentially more profitable in either a case?
Hi Michael A new thread for the Egyptian/Hittite discussion. Concerning the equation between Messuwy and Amenmesse - there is nothing positive, I can state about it. Yurco could identify only objects ... more
Hi Tory. Specifically, to this point. "Speculation. Easier to believe that an invasion of Asiatics (as Manetho states) is what forced Merenptah to flee south (examples exist) and not an internal... more
Hi Jon, I tend to think the "priestly lore" from which Manetho gets his story about Merenptah was more or less free from the royal bias found in a typical royal text. The royal policy would be say... more
Hi Chris Kitchen notes that a date of IV Peret year 2 Seti II is attested at Silsila south of Thebes and an ostracon from Deir el-Medina, ODM 889, published by Grandet in 2003 and "attributable" to... more
Joe -- I'm a little confused. You wrote: Anyway from a quick search, using the database of this site, I can not see why the inscription could not be assigned to year 4 Siptah. Was the reason it was... more
Hi Chris But, rightly or wrongly, Grandet and Kitchen do assign it to year 4 Seti II . Do you mean "Siptah" in the first and third mentions of Seti II?? No. Here I was not referring to the Grandet... more
Thanks to Chris for the link to the article by co-authors Gilmour and Kitchen. I have just finished reading it. According to the authors, Merenptah reigned 10 years without any interruption and then... more
Hi Michael B. if Amenmesse revolted in the north and could spread his influence widely into the south - were could Sethos or Merneptah still hold a foot in Egypt? How could they envision that either... more
Hi Tory: >>At least we've established that your only "evidence" for this so-called northern revolt by Amenmesse, which drove Merenptah out of Egypt and into Kush, is Manetho, Chairemon, and Apion.... more
Hi Michael, >>At least we've established that your only "evidence" for this so-called northern revolt by Amenmesse, which drove Merenptah out of Egypt and into Kush, is Manetho, Chairemon, and Apion. ... more
Tory, this is my last statement. You yourself have assumed two different events - one in the period of Merenptah (based on the late literature) - one in the period of Sethos II echoing it (based on... more
Michael this is my last statement. You yourself have assumed two different events - one in the period of Merenptah (based on the late literature) - one in the period of Sethos II echoing it (based on ... more
I am copying this from Wiki to save time: "Rolf Krauss, followed by Aidan Dodson, suggests that Amenmesse was once a Kushite Viceroy called Messuwy. In particular, two representations of Messuwy on... more
Michael wrote: "BTW, I read your Exodus, etc. book recently. Mixed feelings." I'm not sure what you mean. Do you have mixed feelings about my conveniently gathering everything anybody had to say in... more
Hi Marianne, not in the least wanting to offend you. I see in your book not only a collection of references. You are advancing, even if quietly, the thesis of a high date for the Exodus. This is... more
Micahel wrote: "I see in your book not only a collection of references. You are advancing, even if quietly, the thesis of a high date for the Exodus. This is however not a point, where we might... more
Dear Marianne, I understand your point of view, but I can not identify with it. It looks too post-modern to my taste. We could otherwise say, there was no 2nd world war but there were "Wars". This is ... more