Marianne Luban
re:The Amarna Period again
Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:45

Kim wrote:

"At the other end of the timeline, the ruler Kadashman-Enlil I wrote to Amunhotep III complaining that he had not been notified of the king’s “great festival”, which can reasonably be conjectured as Amunhotep III’s first sed-festival of his year 30."

Why assume that when he had two more--the last in Year 37?

"The minimal chronology from about 31 Amunhotep III (allowing time for the letter, and for Kadashman-Enlil's death) to about 20 Ramesses II (the latest date for Kadashman-Turgu) is:
Burnaburiash II 27, his successors 0, Kurigalzu II 25, Nazimaruttash 26, Kadashman-Enlil II (if he existed) 0.
Total: 78 years

In Egypt the maximum corresponding period, derived from surviving regnal years, is as follows:
Amunhotep III years 31-38 (last) = 7; Akhenaten years 1-17 (last) = 16; Smenkhkare year 1 = 1; Neferneferuaten years 1-3 = 3; Tutankhamun years 1-9 = 9; Aya years 1-4 = 4; Horemhab years 1-14 = 14; Ramesses I years 1-2 = 2; Sety I years 1-9 = 9; Ramesses II years 1-20 = 20.
Total: 85 years.
There are only 7 years of leeway here;"

You only need eight years of coregency between Amenhotep III and Akhenaten. That's what the most compelling evidence points to--no more, no less.

"a reasonable chronology would remove a further 3 years on the grounds that some of the reigns between Akhenaten and Ramesses II probably did not last long into the attested highest year,"

That's another assumption that is dangerous to make.

"Without a longer reign for someone on the list, any proposal for a lengthy coregency of Akhenaten with his father is doomed; even small proposed overlaps (such as Neferneferuaten with Akhenaten or Tutankhamun or both, or Sety I with Ramesses II) will cause difficulty."

If you are dooming a coregency on assumptions, that is not very compelling, but this is interesting. One can't rule out a longer reign for someone else, though, based on "last attested", so that is a possibility.

" Long reign for Horemhab:
This has been proposed (and accepted by many) on the basis of three factors: etc."

Yes, but it is currently accepted that the evidence of the jar dockets should be accepted plus the poor progress on the royal tomb, itself. Which you explain, below.

"In contrast, excavation of the tomb of Horemhab, KV57, have revealed wine jar dockets dated to years 13 and 14, and no dockets at all for any higher number. This is compatible with Helck's compiled list of year dates from 1 to 13, with almost no missing years (from memory). A reign of 27 (or more) for Horemhab seems ruled out."


"Long reign for Sety I:
The events of year 1-9 (ordinary) appear to be different from those of years 1-9 (whm mswt). It is entirely possible that this king actually reigned for 18-19 years."

Anything is possible, within reason, but a decade is the accepted duration and, of course, that could change with better proof--so far lacking.

  • The Amarna Period againKim Sargerson, Sat Aug 27 23:46
    Hi all There have been a few almost random mentions of this period in recent months, so I thought I would outline the problems and information again, as well as my own latest thoughts. General... more
    • Re: The Amarna Period againJoe Baker, Fri Sep 2 07:02
      Hi Kim Hattushili II (III) wrote to king Kadashman-Enlil III (II) some time after the latter’s accession, and refers to an offer by the latter’s father Kadashman-Turgu to assist him in a war with... more
      • Re: The Amarna Period againKim Sargerson, Fri Sep 2 20:00
        Hi Joe "On the other hand I place Kadašman–Enlil’s offer after the year 21 treaty." I think you mean Kadashman-Turgu. Yes, this is a possibility. However the chronology I presented had K-T acceding... more
    • re:The Amarna Period again — Marianne Luban, Sun Aug 28 10:45
      • re:The Amarna Period againKim Sargerson, Sun Aug 28 15:48
        Hello Marianne You wrote "Why assume that when he had two more--the last in Year 37?" Because that would make the period required to be spanned by the Egyptian reigns a further 7 years more, and bang ... more
        • Re:The Amarna Period againJoe Baker, Mon Aug 29 03:30
          Hi Kim The only kinds of evidence that would be acceptable in this context are (a) a dated inscription from the reign of Amenhotep III titling Tiye "king's mother" (b) a joint inscription by the two... more
          • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 12:26
            Joe: "As I have said many times in the past, no co-regencies - there is no evidence of a co-regency only evidence of the gullibility and or ignorance of scholars and commentators." Is that so. What... more
            • Re:The Amarna Period againAnonymous, Mon Aug 29 18:44
              Hello Marianne You wrote "" This cites the same old arguments, plus a bit of "Manethonic" numerology. Every single ... more
              • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 23:52
                Kim wrote: "" "This cites the same old arguments, plus a bit of "Manethonic" numerology." I don't know what... more
                • Re:The Amarna Period againKim Sargerson, Tue Aug 30 15:54
                  Marianne If you don't understand what I write, ask me to explain it to you. That's not being patronising, I often have to do the same. But don't sneer at something you do not understand, just say you ... more
                  • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 18:34
                    Kim: "Everyone who thinks anything about "Manetho" that is positive, is of the opinion that Josephus had access to a more detailed and more original text than the others." What I said to Cullom about ... more
                    • Re:The Amarna Period againKim Sargerson, Wed Aug 31 13:25
                      Marianne "What I said to Cullom about people who have not made an extensive study of Manetho pontificating applies to you, as well." If by studying you mean sitting in a room on your own imagining... more
                    • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 19:06
                      I should clarify one thing, however. Even though version of Theophilus of the kinglist of Dynasty 18 is more correct than that of Josephus in some respects, he did not understand that there were some ... more
              • Re:The Age of KV55Joe Baker, Mon Aug 29 20:37
                Hi Kim You commented on the age estimate of the KV55 mummy in the book "Scanning the Pharaohs" by Z. Hawass and S. Saleem Thus the same team who want KV55 to be aged 35-45 (their assessment, not... more
                • Re:The Age of KV55Kim Sargerson, Mon Aug 29 22:45
                  Hi Joe "You are forgetting things." Yes, I am. It was 1966, not 1967. It was Harrison's examination I was referring to. This concluded that the age ranges for two features, eruption of the wisdom... more
                  • re: The Age of KV55Marianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 00:26
                    Kim: "The magic bricks are surely not original to the Akhetaten burial, and even the coffin and canopic jars were altered at least once in the tomb. Not what I would call a convincing provenance.... more
                • re: the age of kv55Rich McQuillen, Mon Aug 29 21:46
                  Old: Hawass/Saleem, Harris/Wente Young: Grafton Elliot Smith, 1967(Harrison, R. G. 1966) **** Add 2 more to the Young camp... Filer(2000) and Derry(1931) Filer (2000) said: "More conclusively, many... more
                  • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 10:09
                    Unfortunately, there is not even a world standard for aging human skeletal remains. However, once... more
                    • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Tue Aug 30 15:50
                      Hi all, Marianne, if you'll allow me to interject here. "However, once again, Professor Smith of the Cairo School of Medicine had experience with ancient Egyptian remains. He told Weigall he thought... more
                  • re: the age of kv55Kim Sargerson, Mon Aug 29 23:23
                    Hello Rich Thank you for posting these quotations. Add two more to the "young" camp - Dr Brenda Baker (2010) and Dr Eugene Strouhal (2010 based on an examination in 1998). All the pathology... more
                  • re: 500 gold sheets foundRich McQuillen, Mon Aug 29 21:55
                    Hopefully this new ongoing study comes up with some new evidence to add to this debate. Forgotton box may hold the key to Egypt’s pharaoh without a face... more
                    • Re: re: 500 gold sheets foundJoe Baker, Tue Aug 30 04:06
                      Hi Rich You quoted from a website In it were 500 scrunched-up gold sheets, the remains of a skull — and an old note scribbled in French with the date the tomb was found. ... The note simply states... more
          • Re:The Amarna Period againKim Sargerson, Mon Aug 29 07:59
            Hi Joe Many thanks for your comments. I really only posted this because I was becoming tired of the old, old "evidence" being cited over and again without any new evidence or new reasoning to back... more
            • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 10:13
              Kim wrote: "If such a co-regency existed then one would expect to find in the Amarna correspondence copies of the same letters sent to both monarchs, especially by the superpowers, or if separate... more
            • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 09:24
              Kim wrote: "I really only posted this because I was becoming tired of the old, old "evidence" being cited over and again without any new evidence or new reasoning to back it." All my arguments for a... more
            • Re:The Amarna Period againJoe Baker, Mon Aug 29 08:42
              Hi Kim In less than 20 years there were full warring pharaohs at Thebes (Rudamun and later Ini, warring with the Kushites), and later, warring with each other, were Hermopolis (Nimlot) and... more
        • CorrectionKim Sargerson, Sun Aug 28 16:07
          I wrote "The closest Aldred came was to (c) when he showed that two papyri (not one) written by the same scribe and featuring many of the same local village names, including those of slaves, dated to ... more
          • Re: CorrectionTory, Mon Aug 29 20:03
            Hi all, Every time Joe opens his mouth he makes the case for the overlap of Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV that much stronger. 1. An overlap is two or more kings (related or not related) ruling from... more
            • Re: CorrectionKim Sargerson, Thu Sep 1 16:07
              Hi Tory "The Gurob Papyri with three consecutive transactions dated year 27 Amenotep III, and years 2 and 3 Amenhotep IV, with all three of these records found in the same conical pottery jar in... more
            • Re: CorrectionKim Sargerson, Mon Aug 29 22:47
              Hi Tory I did say it was the closest Aldred came. For a while (about 2 years) it convinced me. But then came Murnane's article... Kim
              • Re: CorrectionTory, Tue Aug 30 00:10
                Murnane's article does not take a position with respect to the papyri in question. It also doesn't discuss the contents of the papyri in any satisfactory way that can be described scholarly rigor.... more
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