Kim Sargerson
re:The Amarna Period again
Sun Aug 28, 2016 15:48
109.156.216.144

Hello Marianne

You wrote

"Why assume that when he had two more--the last in Year 37?"
Because that would make the period required to be spanned by the Egyptian reigns a further 7 years more, and bang goes any coregency idea at all. The idea was to present the minimal Babylonian versus the maximal Egyptian.

"You only need eight years of coregency between Amenhotep III and Akhenaten. That's what the most compelling evidence points to"
There is no compelling evidence for any exact period. Otherwise what have people been arguing about for the last 50 years?

"That's another assumption that is dangerous to make"
It is a logical assumption based on the fact that the highest attested year may be only a partial. In the case of kings like Aya or Ramesses I, who are in their sixties when they acceded, or Horemhab, whose year 14 seems to have ceased partway through for his burial, extending their reigns seems to require strong direct evidence, not a list of maybes. So, that is 3 obvious candidates for "rounding down". Then there is Smenkhkare, who may not have had an independent reign and may not have completed a year in any case, but I have assigned a full year. Then there is Neferneferuaten, who may not have completed her year 3 and may be partically coterminous with either Akhenaten or Tutankhamun or both.

"If you are dooming a coregency on assumptions, that is not very compelling"
I am dooming it on evidence. You are proposing it on assumptions. The long reign for Horemhab now seems to be ruled out by the evidence, but the period required to be covered by all the reigns remains the same. So either someone else must have a longer reign or no coregency is possible. At the moment additional evidence may add years to the Egyptian timeline, because we cannot be sure in most cases that the highest attested is the last. But equally there are 3 points at which the Babylonian timeline might be extended by further discoveries.

As for a coregency of Amunhotep III and Akhenaten, the vast bulk of the stylistic evidence is no more than a judgement call, not actual evidence. Similar judgement calls suggested a coregency between Thutmose III and Amunhotep II, which is now ruled out (I was in favour of it but accept the arguments against as valid). So, apearances in the same depiction is not evidence; joint decoration of a particular building is not evidence; calculations based on "Manetho" and a set of assumptions is not evidence (all these were employed for the latter coregency). The only kinds of evidence that would be acceptable in this context are

(a) a dated inscription from the reign of Amunhotep III titling Tiye "king's mother"
(b) a joint inscription by the two kings with titulary and regnal years of both
(c) a single papyrus document clearly dating year 1 of Amunhotep IV immediately after a particular year (say 29 or 30 in your scheme) of Amunhotep III.

None of these exist. The closest Aldred came was to (c) when he showed that two papyri (not one) written by the same scribe and featuring many of the same local village names, including those of slaves, dated to the early thirties of Amunhotep III and the 4th (? from memory) of Amunhotep IV, should be considered to be close in time, and an improvement in the standard 13-14 years separation would be a plus.

Murnane decisively demolished most of the coregency arguments nearly 40 years ago. These included the career of the vizier Ramose, the careers of Anen and Simut 2PAs, the tomb decorations of Kheruef, Ramose, the wine jar dockets dated to years 28 and 30, and the year 30 inscription of Amunhotep III where one of his epithets is "causing the son to rejoice on the seat of his father (etc.)". If anything, the tomb of Kheruef shows that all or part of the early years (1-4) of Amunhotep IV fall after the year 37 sed-festival of Amunhotep III. Without suitable refutation of his arguments, it seems to me pointless to simply re-present these so called pieces of evidence.

Regards

Kim


  • re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Sun Aug 28 10:45
    Kim wrote: "At the other end of the timeline, the ruler Kadashman-Enlil I wrote to Amunhotep III complaining that he had not been notified of the king’s “great festival”, which can reasonably be... more
    • re:The Amarna Period again — Kim Sargerson, Sun Aug 28 15:48
      • Re:The Amarna Period againJoe Baker, Mon Aug 29 03:30
        Hi Kim The only kinds of evidence that would be acceptable in this context are (a) a dated inscription from the reign of Amenhotep III titling Tiye "king's mother" (b) a joint inscription by the two... more
        • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 12:26
          Joe: "As I have said many times in the past, no co-regencies - there is no evidence of a co-regency only evidence of the gullibility and or ignorance of scholars and commentators." Is that so. What... more
          • Re:The Amarna Period againAnonymous, Mon Aug 29 18:44
            Hello Marianne You wrote "https://www.academia.edu/16702265/The_Significance_of_Eight_Years_for_King_Akhenaten_" This cites the same old arguments, plus a bit of "Manethonic" numerology. Every single ... more
            • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 23:52
              Kim wrote: "https://www.academia.edu/16702265/The_Significance_of_Eight_Years_for_King_Akhenaten_" "This cites the same old arguments, plus a bit of "Manethonic" numerology." I don't know what... more
              • Re:The Amarna Period againKim Sargerson, Tue Aug 30 15:54
                Marianne If you don't understand what I write, ask me to explain it to you. That's not being patronising, I often have to do the same. But don't sneer at something you do not understand, just say you ... more
                • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 18:34
                  Kim: "Everyone who thinks anything about "Manetho" that is positive, is of the opinion that Josephus had access to a more detailed and more original text than the others." What I said to Cullom about ... more
                  • Re:The Amarna Period againKim Sargerson, Wed Aug 31 13:25
                    Marianne "What I said to Cullom about people who have not made an extensive study of Manetho pontificating applies to you, as well." If by studying you mean sitting in a room on your own imagining... more
                  • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 19:06
                    I should clarify one thing, however. Even though version of Theophilus of the kinglist of Dynasty 18 is more correct than that of Josephus in some respects, he did not understand that there were some ... more
            • Re:The Age of KV55Joe Baker, Mon Aug 29 20:37
              Hi Kim You commented on the age estimate of the KV55 mummy in the book "Scanning the Pharaohs" by Z. Hawass and S. Saleem Thus the same team who want KV55 to be aged 35-45 (their assessment, not... more
              • Re:The Age of KV55Kim Sargerson, Mon Aug 29 22:45
                Hi Joe "You are forgetting things." Yes, I am. It was 1966, not 1967. It was Harrison's examination I was referring to. This concluded that the age ranges for two features, eruption of the wisdom... more
                • re: The Age of KV55Marianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 00:26
                  Kim: "The magic bricks are surely not original to the Akhetaten burial, and even the coffin and canopic jars were altered at least once in the tomb. Not what I would call a convincing provenance.... more
              • re: the age of kv55Rich McQuillen, Mon Aug 29 21:46
                Old: Hawass/Saleem, Harris/Wente Young: Grafton Elliot Smith, 1967(Harrison, R. G. 1966) **** Add 2 more to the Young camp... Filer(2000) and Derry(1931) Filer (2000) said: "More conclusively, many... more
                • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 10:09
                  Unfortunately, there is not even a world standard for aging human skeletal remains. https://bonesdontlie.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/determining-age-in-human-remains-call-for-standards/ However, once... more
                  • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Tue Aug 30 15:50
                    Hi all, Marianne, if you'll allow me to interject here. "However, once again, Professor Smith of the Cairo School of Medicine had experience with ancient Egyptian remains. He told Weigall he thought... more
                    • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 10:09
                      Jaime: "Smenkhkare was about 16 years old when he sired Tutankhamun by a sister." I wrote: "You see? It's very easy to say "Oh, well, that KV55 guy has to be Smenkhkare" but it's not very easy to... more
                    • A small noteJaime O, Tue Aug 30 16:06
                      Marianne, you also asked: "If he married Meritaten around Year 12 of Akhenaten, then when was Meritaten the wife of her own father, since she was probably less than 12 in Year 12?" In my scheme, she... more
                • re: the age of kv55Kim Sargerson, Mon Aug 29 23:23
                  Hello Rich Thank you for posting these quotations. Add two more to the "young" camp - Dr Brenda Baker (2010) and Dr Eugene Strouhal (2010 based on an examination in 1998). All the pathology... more
                • re: 500 gold sheets foundRich McQuillen, Mon Aug 29 21:55
                  Hopefully this new ongoing study comes up with some new evidence to add to this debate. Forgotton box may hold the key to Egypt’s pharaoh without a face... more
                  • Re: re: 500 gold sheets foundJoe Baker, Tue Aug 30 04:06
                    Hi Rich You quoted from a website In it were 500 scrunched-up gold sheets, the remains of a skull — and an old note scribbled in French with the date the tomb was found. ... The note simply states... more
        • Re:The Amarna Period againKim Sargerson, Mon Aug 29 07:59
          Hi Joe Many thanks for your comments. I really only posted this because I was becoming tired of the old, old "evidence" being cited over and again without any new evidence or new reasoning to back... more
          • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 10:13
            Kim wrote: "If such a co-regency existed then one would expect to find in the Amarna correspondence copies of the same letters sent to both monarchs, especially by the superpowers, or if separate... more
          • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 09:24
            Kim wrote: "I really only posted this because I was becoming tired of the old, old "evidence" being cited over and again without any new evidence or new reasoning to back it." All my arguments for a... more
          • Re:The Amarna Period againJoe Baker, Mon Aug 29 08:42
            Hi Kim In less than 20 years there were full warring pharaohs at Thebes (Rudamun and later Ini, warring with the Kushites), and later, warring with each other, were Hermopolis (Nimlot) and... more
      • CorrectionKim Sargerson, Sun Aug 28 16:07
        I wrote "The closest Aldred came was to (c) when he showed that two papyri (not one) written by the same scribe and featuring many of the same local village names, including those of slaves, dated to ... more
        • Re: CorrectionTory, Mon Aug 29 20:03
          Hi all, Every time Joe opens his mouth he makes the case for the overlap of Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV that much stronger. 1. An overlap is two or more kings (related or not related) ruling from... more
          • Re: CorrectionKim Sargerson, Thu Sep 1 16:07
            Hi Tory "The Gurob Papyri with three consecutive transactions dated year 27 Amenotep III, and years 2 and 3 Amenhotep IV, with all three of these records found in the same conical pottery jar in... more
          • Re: CorrectionKim Sargerson, Mon Aug 29 22:47
            Hi Tory I did say it was the closest Aldred came. For a while (about 2 years) it convinced me. But then came Murnane's article... Kim
            • Re: CorrectionTory, Tue Aug 30 00:10
              Murnane's article does not take a position with respect to the papyri in question. It also doesn't discuss the contents of the papyri in any satisfactory way that can be described scholarly rigor.... more
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