Kim Sargerson
Re:The Amarna Period again
Mon Aug 29, 2016 07:59
109.156.216.144

Hi Joe

Many thanks for your comments.

I really only posted this because I was becoming tired of the old, old "evidence" being cited over and again without any new evidence or new reasoning to back it.

I am not even sure about the "gifts" scenes. There are scenes from TT42, 43 and 200 showing Thutmose III and Amunhotep II together, reviewing troops and receiving offerings. Yet even these must be anachronistic, or simply showing in short form that the two both performed similar actions witnessed by the people whose tombs they are.

I agree that it is telling how few items of Amunhotep III are at Akhetaten, and that the items from Malqata for Amunhotep IV indicated no more than that he resided there briefly at the start of his reign. But the high officials are something else. Much play by coregency favourers is made of the vizier Ramose, who has docketed items for the sed-festival of year 30, but not for either of the later ones. Problem is, there is no other vizier who has docketed donations for the heb-seds of years 34, 38. In fact dated material for the first sed is much greater in quantity than the other two, and if prince Amunhotep donated to one, why not to the others, and so forth. Perhaps the repetitions were of less significance in terms of the level of tribute and celebration,

"If such a co-regency existed then one would expect to find in the Amarna correspondence copies of the same letters sent to both monarchs, especially by the superpowers, or if separate letters where sent then a comment about the health etc. of the other co-regent, or a comment about one regent seeking advise or guidance or information from the other co-regent"
I agree. Coregency must have a specific function, although we do not know what it is. It is difficult to imagine two absolute monarchs ruling the same territory. Generally it is assumed that there is only one "actor" at a time, whether it is the senior who continues or the junior who takes over. The Akhenaten coregency is different in that there would be two actors, and not only that but acting in contradictory manner. The concept of crowning a chosen heir is common to the claims of Hatshepsut and Ramesses II, but both as children with no power transfer or royal style. Conferring a prenomen, the crown, and regnal years seems to be of a different kind, and I have not been able to formulate a "nature of coregency" statement which applies in all cases.

Your comment on Osorkon III / Takelot III - you may be right. It is certainly a new idea. I am not sure there is any direct evidence for it, and the only clear evidence at all associates them together, as well as their successive reigns being associated with the same polity (Thebes). What separate regions do you envisage them ruling?

Regards

Kim

  • Re:The Amarna Period againJoe Baker, Mon Aug 29 03:30
    Hi Kim The only kinds of evidence that would be acceptable in this context are (a) a dated inscription from the reign of Amenhotep III titling Tiye "king's mother" (b) a joint inscription by the two... more
    • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 12:26
      Joe: "As I have said many times in the past, no co-regencies - there is no evidence of a co-regency only evidence of the gullibility and or ignorance of scholars and commentators." Is that so. What... more
      • Re:The Amarna Period againAnonymous, Mon Aug 29 18:44
        Hello Marianne You wrote "https://www.academia.edu/16702265/The_Significance_of_Eight_Years_for_King_Akhenaten_" This cites the same old arguments, plus a bit of "Manethonic" numerology. Every single ... more
        • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 23:52
          Kim wrote: "https://www.academia.edu/16702265/The_Significance_of_Eight_Years_for_King_Akhenaten_" "This cites the same old arguments, plus a bit of "Manethonic" numerology." I don't know what... more
          • Re:The Amarna Period againKim Sargerson, Tue Aug 30 15:54
            Marianne If you don't understand what I write, ask me to explain it to you. That's not being patronising, I often have to do the same. But don't sneer at something you do not understand, just say you ... more
            • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 18:34
              Kim: "Everyone who thinks anything about "Manetho" that is positive, is of the opinion that Josephus had access to a more detailed and more original text than the others." What I said to Cullom about ... more
              • Re:The Amarna Period againKim Sargerson, Wed Aug 31 13:25
                Marianne "What I said to Cullom about people who have not made an extensive study of Manetho pontificating applies to you, as well." If by studying you mean sitting in a room on your own imagining... more
                • I wrote: "What I said to Cullom about people who have not made an extensive study of Manetho pontificating applies to you, as well." Kim: "If by studying you mean sitting in a room on your own... more
                  • "What I said to Cullom ..."Kim Sargerson, Thu Sep 1 12:31
                    Hello Marianne You wrote "Why did I need some specific teacher?" So you are claiming, as I thought, superior insight based on autodidactism. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but if you can do it, ... more
              • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 19:06
                I should clarify one thing, however. Even though version of Theophilus of the kinglist of Dynasty 18 is more correct than that of Josephus in some respects, he did not understand that there were some ... more
        • Re:The Age of KV55Joe Baker, Mon Aug 29 20:37
          Hi Kim You commented on the age estimate of the KV55 mummy in the book "Scanning the Pharaohs" by Z. Hawass and S. Saleem Thus the same team who want KV55 to be aged 35-45 (their assessment, not... more
          • Re:The Age of KV55Kim Sargerson, Mon Aug 29 22:45
            Hi Joe "You are forgetting things." Yes, I am. It was 1966, not 1967. It was Harrison's examination I was referring to. This concluded that the age ranges for two features, eruption of the wisdom... more
            • re: The Age of KV55Marianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 00:26
              Kim: "The magic bricks are surely not original to the Akhetaten burial, and even the coffin and canopic jars were altered at least once in the tomb. Not what I would call a convincing provenance.... more
          • re: the age of kv55Rich McQuillen, Mon Aug 29 21:46
            Old: Hawass/Saleem, Harris/Wente Young: Grafton Elliot Smith, 1967(Harrison, R. G. 1966) **** Add 2 more to the Young camp... Filer(2000) and Derry(1931) Filer (2000) said: "More conclusively, many... more
            • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 10:09
              Unfortunately, there is not even a world standard for aging human skeletal remains. https://bonesdontlie.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/determining-age-in-human-remains-call-for-standards/ However, once... more
              • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Tue Aug 30 15:50
                Hi all, Marianne, if you'll allow me to interject here. "However, once again, Professor Smith of the Cairo School of Medicine had experience with ancient Egyptian remains. He told Weigall he thought... more
                • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 10:09
                  Jaime: "Smenkhkare was about 16 years old when he sired Tutankhamun by a sister." I wrote: "You see? It's very easy to say "Oh, well, that KV55 guy has to be Smenkhkare" but it's not very easy to... more
                  • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Wed Aug 31 12:58
                    Hi Marianne, Thank you for the reply. "Well, I'm sorry you would characterize my valid comment about "easy" as opposed to "compelling scenario" as a "rant"." My apologies here. English is not my... more
                    • Re: the age of kv55Joe Baker, Fri Sep 2 05:15
                      Hi Jaime Meryre II's tomb has the last appearance of the royal Amarna family dated to Year 12 and these representations are followed by Smenkhkare's debut with Meritaten by his side. I too think the... more
                    • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 21:19
                      I wrote: "However, I do not believe that Akhenaten [Tutankhamun, per Post 17018] was born to Nefertiti until after Year 12. I am with Gabolde in thinking that the child, shielded by fans and attended ... more
                    • Yet another correctionJaime O, Wed Aug 31 12:59
                      "c) AFAIK, the coffin is considered to have been reused from a female to fit Akhenaten" I meant to say "a male' instead of 'Akhenaten' Regards, Jaime
                  • CorrectionMarianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 10:10
                    I should certainly have written "However, I do not believe that TUTANKHAMUN was born to Nefertiti until after Year 12."
                • A small noteJaime O, Tue Aug 30 16:06
                  Marianne, you also asked: "If he married Meritaten around Year 12 of Akhenaten, then when was Meritaten the wife of her own father, since she was probably less than 12 in Year 12?" In my scheme, she... more
            • re: the age of kv55Kim Sargerson, Mon Aug 29 23:23
              Hello Rich Thank you for posting these quotations. Add two more to the "young" camp - Dr Brenda Baker (2010) and Dr Eugene Strouhal (2010 based on an examination in 1998). All the pathology... more
            • re: 500 gold sheets foundRich McQuillen, Mon Aug 29 21:55
              Hopefully this new ongoing study comes up with some new evidence to add to this debate. Forgotton box may hold the key to Egypt’s pharaoh without a face... more
              • Re: re: 500 gold sheets foundJoe Baker, Tue Aug 30 04:06
                Hi Rich You quoted from a website In it were 500 scrunched-up gold sheets, the remains of a skull — and an old note scribbled in French with the date the tomb was found. ... The note simply states... more
    • Re:The Amarna Period again — Kim Sargerson, Mon Aug 29 07:59
      • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 10:13
        Kim wrote: "If such a co-regency existed then one would expect to find in the Amarna correspondence copies of the same letters sent to both monarchs, especially by the superpowers, or if separate... more
      • Re:The Amarna Period againMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 29 09:24
        Kim wrote: "I really only posted this because I was becoming tired of the old, old "evidence" being cited over and again without any new evidence or new reasoning to back it." All my arguments for a... more
      • Re:The Amarna Period againJoe Baker, Mon Aug 29 08:42
        Hi Kim In less than 20 years there were full warring pharaohs at Thebes (Rudamun and later Ini, warring with the Kushites), and later, warring with each other, were Hermopolis (Nimlot) and... more
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