Jaime O
re: the age of kv55
Tue Aug 30, 2016 15:50
95.95.208.52

Hi all,

Marianne, if you'll allow me to interject here.

"However, once again, Professor Smith of the Cairo School of Medicine had experience with ancient Egyptian remains. He told Weigall he thought the KV55 individual was a man who had died at the age of 30. In his book, "The Royal Mummies", he opined that the man was "at least 24". That was his lower end estimate."

Here, I'll stick to Dr Douglas Derry and Harrison, who on forensic grounds concluded the mummy was much younger.

"If there was an eight-year coregency between Amenhotep III and his heir, then the latter had to be at least 13 years old at the time for one reason alone. Akhenaten's eldest daughter, Meritaten, had to be born shortly after his elevation. At Karnak there is, at first, only Meritaten following behind Nefertiti. [...] one might have expected him to have had more than one daughter in the beginning. These people married young! By Year 5, there were still only two daughters."

I can't agree with your reasoning here. How many children a man can produce lies not in his power, but on his female partner's ability to conceive. If Meritaten and Ankhsenpaaten were born between Years 1 and 5 and no other daughter was born until Year 6, that was Nefertiti's concern. This type of gaps between full-blood siblings is not new to us.

"If KV55 is Smenkhkare, he would have to be the father of Tutankhamun, according to the DNA. Since Tut is supposed to have been 18 or 19 years old when he died, and his highest attested year is 10, then he became king at the age of eight or nine. If your son is eight, in order for you to be his father and die at the age of 24, you would have to have been 16 when he was born."

Yes, these are the logical assumptions of accepting KV55's estimate age.

"Smenkhkare has only a year of attested reign, so where does he fit into the reign of Akhenaten? He has to be the son of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye--so when was he born?"

The chronological position of Smenkhkare is open to debate. Some people think he succeeded Akhenaten; I personally think evidence point out for a coregency between the two. Meryre II's tomb has the last appearance of the royal Amarna family dated to Year 12 and these representations are followed by Smenkhkare's debut with Meritaten by his side. We also know Akhenaten had another concurrent ruler, Queen Neferneferuaten. Parallel to this, Nefertiti was still alive and Great Royal Wife in Year 16, and because of the unlikelihood of Akhenaten choosing a female coregent beyond his wife, clearly a powerful woman in her court, chances are Smenkhkare ruled concurrently to Akhenaten between Year 12 (min.) and Year 16/17 (max.). This is where I believe we can fit Smenkhkare, preferably between Years 13-17, thus a short reign of 4.5 or 5 years, most of which unattested.
When was Smenkhkare born if he is KV55 and thus AIII's son by Tiye? Kim's speculation seems to take the better part: the prince Thutmose who appears in Tutankhamun's tomb is clearly not Amenhotep III's eldest son, and the 'repeating of birth' associated with his name makes it possible to interpret this Thutmose as a prince born after his namesake brother died. I don't think this prince can possibly be any other dynastic personage: although we lack the full report of the Thutmoside princes between Thutmose II and Amenhotep III, this name doesn't same to be as repetitive and common as you seem to think. So chances are this prince Thutmose, a general who is king's son, is Amenhotep III's son by Queen Tiye; Kim attempts to identify him with Smenkhkare. It works, but it's very speculative. The fact that Smenkhkare was married to Meritaten, daughter of Akhenaten and thus a generation removed from her husband if he was her uncle, makes me believe he was born late, around the same time Prince Thutmose (B) was also born (around Year 30 and later).

Below, I'll give you my tentative reconstruction of this period (I'll use numerals beginning with 0 because exact dates are open to debate):

- Thutmose IV, 0-10
- Amenhotep III, 10-47;
- Akhenaten, 47-64;
- Smenkhkare, 59-63;
- Neferneferuaten, 63-65;
- Tutankhamun, 65-74;

Now, my estimate dates of birth and death, plus age at ascension and death:

- Amenhotep III, 1-47 (ascends aged 9, dies aged 46);
- Tiye, 3-58 (is queen aged 7, dies aged 55);
- Thutmose A, 21-39 (dies aged 18);
- Sitamun, 23-?? (is queen aged 16);
- Isis, 25-?? (is queen aged 18);
- Akhenaten, 31-64 (ascends aged 16, dies aged 33);
- Nefertiti, 33-65? (is queen aged 14, dies aged 32?);
- Smenkhkare = Thutmose B?, 40-63 (ascends aged 19, dies aged 23);
- Meritaten, 48-65? (is queen aged 11, dies aged 17?);
- Tutankhamun, 56-74 (ascends aged 9, dies aged 18);

Smenkhkare was about 16 years old when he sired Tutankhamun by a sister.

"You see? It's very easy to say "Oh, well, that KV55 guy has to be Smenkhkare" but it's not very easy to answer those questions, is it?"

I think I answered them. You also asked, still on the rant about how to fit Smenkhkare in Akhenaten's reign while being Tutankhamun's father, "So why would Akhenaten want to have made a brother in his own generation a coregent?", but I'd like to make that question to you. Those who want to identify Akhenaten with KV55 have to justify how Smenkhkare and Neferneferuaten came in between if there was a boy to inherit the heretic king.

My apologies to Rich, for Marianne's reply was to him.

Best wishes,
Jaime

  • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Tue Aug 30 10:09
    Unfortunately, there is not even a world standard for aging human skeletal remains. https://bonesdontlie.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/determining-age-in-human-remains-call-for-standards/ However, once... more
    • re: the age of kv55 — Jaime O, Tue Aug 30 15:50
      • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 10:09
        Jaime: "Smenkhkare was about 16 years old when he sired Tutankhamun by a sister." I wrote: "You see? It's very easy to say "Oh, well, that KV55 guy has to be Smenkhkare" but it's not very easy to... more
        • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Wed Aug 31 12:58
          Hi Marianne, Thank you for the reply. "Well, I'm sorry you would characterize my valid comment about "easy" as opposed to "compelling scenario" as a "rant"." My apologies here. English is not my... more
          • Re: the age of kv55Joe Baker, Fri Sep 2 05:15
            Hi Jaime Meryre II's tomb has the last appearance of the royal Amarna family dated to Year 12 and these representations are followed by Smenkhkare's debut with Meritaten by his side. I too think the... more
            • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Sat Sep 3 07:52
              Hi Joe, thank you for your comments. I appreciate your remarks on Meryre II and they do make sense. To some extent. You and me seem to agree that Meritaten was likelier than not Ankhkhe(t)perure... more
              • re: the age of kv55Kim Sargerson, Mon Sep 5 07:59
                Hi Jaime, Joe I think too much is made of "erasure". There are not always political overtones to this. The calcite jar which apparently had the cartouches of Smenkhkare and Akhenaten side by side,... more
                • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Mon Sep 5 12:23
                  Kim: Just a few responses... "It should be remembered that most of Tutankhamun's gravegoods come from a small window of time at the end of the Amarna period. There is one winejar from Amunhotep III... more
                  • re: the age of kv55Kim Sargerson, Mon Sep 5 19:05
                    Hi Marianne Thank you for your comments. I wrote "(and no objects attesting to a coregency of Amunhotep III and Akhenaten)." Perhaps I could have phrased that better. What I am trying to say is that... more
                    • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Tue Sep 6 09:30
                      I wrote: "So it is Neferneferuaten on that box element and she did not need a wife. Akhenaten did--and that Great Royal Wife was now Meritaten" Kim: "Yes it is Neferneferuaten, female pharaoh, which... more
            • Re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Fri Sep 2 10:17
              Hello Joe, Jaime "Meryre II's tomb has the last appearance of the royal Amarna family dated to Year 12 and these representations are followed by Smenkhkare's debut with Meritaten by his side." "I too ... more
              • CorrectionMarianne Luban, Fri Sep 2 10:47
                Joe: "Phantom children only ever depicted/mentioned in illustrations/texts from the Kiya dedicated Meru-Aten. Her original inscriptions were later reinscribed to represent the older surviving... more
          • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 21:19
            I wrote: "However, I do not believe that Akhenaten [Tutankhamun, per Post 17018] was born to Nefertiti until after Year 12. I am with Gabolde in thinking that the child, shielded by fans and attended ... more
            • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Thu Sep 1 08:03
              I wrote: "I don't think the name "Smenkhkare" ever appears in KV62. I will have to confirm. Regardless, there is still KV55, whose earliest door seals bear the name of Tutankhamun--so in his reign."... more
              • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Thu Sep 1 09:34
                Anything that can be known about any sequins from KV62 can be found on page 60 of Reeves' "After Tutankhamun". Interesting chapter, but still nothing verifying Smenkhkare on those sequins.... more
                • Pharaohs and revisionsJaime O, Thu Sep 1 10:08
                  Hi Marianne, "I doubt those would have been portrayed as being so important--fans and all. And why kill off that baby? Just because Nefertiti can have been its mother? " Because we know nothing of... more
                  • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Thu Sep 1 10:18
                    Marianne, I was already writing my reply when you posted your 17027 and 17028. Thank you for your further comments. However, I still can't see why Smenkhkare can't be Tutankhamun's father, even if he ... more
                    • Ankhkheperure MeritatenJaime O, Thu Sep 1 21:27
                      The answer was in the link I send all along. Stupid me for not seeing all the items listed at once. http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/046gg.html Here, Meritaten is in clear association with the ... more
          • Yet another correctionJaime O, Wed Aug 31 12:59
            "c) AFAIK, the coffin is considered to have been reused from a female to fit Akhenaten" I meant to say "a male' instead of 'Akhenaten' Regards, Jaime
        • CorrectionMarianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 10:10
          I should certainly have written "However, I do not believe that TUTANKHAMUN was born to Nefertiti until after Year 12."
      • A small noteJaime O, Tue Aug 30 16:06
        Marianne, you also asked: "If he married Meritaten around Year 12 of Akhenaten, then when was Meritaten the wife of her own father, since she was probably less than 12 in Year 12?" In my scheme, she... more
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