Marianne Luban
re: the age of kv55
Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:09
75.162.250.209

Jaime:

"Smenkhkare was about 16 years old when he sired Tutankhamun by a sister."

I wrote:

"You see? It's very easy to say "Oh, well, that KV55 guy has to be Smenkhkare" but it's not very easy to answer those questions, is it?"

"I think I answered them. You also asked, still on the rant about how to fit Smenkhkare in Akhenaten's reign while being Tutankhamun's father, "So why would Akhenaten want to have made a brother in his own generation a coregent?", but I'd like to make that question to you. Those who want to identify Akhenaten with KV55 have to justify how Smenkhkare and Neferneferuaten came in between if there was a boy to inherit the heretic king."

Well, I'm sorry you would characterize my valid comment about "easy" as opposed to "compelling scenario" as a "rant". However, I do not believe that Akhenaten was born to Nefertiti until after Year 12. I am with Gabolde in thinking that the child, shielded by fans and attended by nurses, in the royal tomb scenes at the time of the death of Meketaten is the long-awaited heir, Tutankhamun. So, obviously, Tut would not have been old enough to rule on his own when his father, Akhenaten, died in Year 17. So others took his place in a chaotic time. Myself, I don't believe Smenkhkare was ever a coregent with Akhenaten as there were no reason for that at any point.

If you insist that he was, then when? Are you sure you want to stick with around Year 12? Because you said:

"The chronological position of Smenkhkare is open to debate. Some people think he succeeded Akhenaten; I personally think evidence point out for a coregency between the two. Meryre II's tomb has the last appearance of the royal Amarna family dated to Year 12 and these representations are followed by Smenkhkare's debut with Meritaten by his side."

So you must think that Smenkhkare was married to his own sister, had a child with her, Tut, and then became the husband of Meritaten in Year 12. Again, when do you think that Meritaten became the wife of her own father--because that is what happened. There is nothing spelled out more clearly than on the box element from KV62. On that, the names of Akhenaten, Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten-mery-waenre [who is Nefertiti, because Smenkhkare is never styled "beloved of Waenre" or Akhenaten]. Then comes "Hmt nsw wrt, Meritaten", who has obviously taken over the old title of her mother, which she did not use as a coregent.

But, okay, let's say Smenkhkare married Meritaten in around Year 12 and already had a son by another woman, who was Tut.
Let's say the boy was three years old then. Five years pass, Akenaten dies, and Smenkhkare succeeds for a year. Then Tut comes along in the succession--age 9. Very neat, indeed, but based entirely on supposition. By Year 12, Meritaten, herself, could have been the heir of Akhenaten at any time as his eldest daughter. She did not need to marry an uncle who already had a wife and a son. I can really see no reason why Akhenaten would rather have a brother and a nephew succeed him than his own child. And, why, by Year 12, would Akhenaten have given up having a son of his own--by anybody? No ancient Egyptian who already had six daughters would have convinced himself that he could never have a son. He would have blamed his wife for that--not himself. And what about the letter sent to Akhenaten which began by saying "I hope everyone in your household is well" and included the words "your sons"? I doubt that, if it was known throughout the ANE that the king of Egypt had no sons, someone would have sent him a letter with such an insensitive salutation. Anything is possible, I suppose.

However, if Tut was the son of the short-lived Smenkhkare, why did he give him absolutely nothing in his reburial in KV55 with his own name on it--not so much as on a magic brick, easily produced? Why did a calcite vase, discovered in KV62, whose cartouches have been reconstructed by a German scholar [his name escapes me just now] as those of Akhenaten and Smenkhkare, side by side, have both cartouches subjected to erasure? You can choose whichever forensic examiner you prefer when it comes to the age-at-death of the KV55 remains, but you have to admit that the coffin belonged to Akhenaten in that tomb and the only name on any magic brick was his. Tut's agents where in the tomb because the initial seals had his name on them. If Smenkhkare had lost his coffin [s], was the only one available that of the heretic, Akhenaten? I think not. What I think is that the heretic had his own coffin in that tomb and it was not defaced, the cartouches not excised, until a later period.

  • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Tue Aug 30 15:50
    Hi all, Marianne, if you'll allow me to interject here. "However, once again, Professor Smith of the Cairo School of Medicine had experience with ancient Egyptian remains. He told Weigall he thought... more
    • re: the age of kv55 — Marianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 10:09
      • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Wed Aug 31 12:58
        Hi Marianne, Thank you for the reply. "Well, I'm sorry you would characterize my valid comment about "easy" as opposed to "compelling scenario" as a "rant"." My apologies here. English is not my... more
        • Re: the age of kv55Joe Baker, Fri Sep 2 05:15
          Hi Jaime Meryre II's tomb has the last appearance of the royal Amarna family dated to Year 12 and these representations are followed by Smenkhkare's debut with Meritaten by his side. I too think the... more
          • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Sat Sep 3 07:52
            Hi Joe, thank you for your comments. I appreciate your remarks on Meryre II and they do make sense. To some extent. You and me seem to agree that Meritaten was likelier than not Ankhkhe(t)perure... more
            • re: the age of kv55Kim Sargerson, Mon Sep 5 07:59
              Hi Jaime, Joe I think too much is made of "erasure". There are not always political overtones to this. The calcite jar which apparently had the cartouches of Smenkhkare and Akhenaten side by side,... more
              • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Mon Sep 5 12:23
                Kim: Just a few responses... "It should be remembered that most of Tutankhamun's gravegoods come from a small window of time at the end of the Amarna period. There is one winejar from Amunhotep III... more
                • re: the age of kv55Kim Sargerson, Mon Sep 5 19:05
                  Hi Marianne Thank you for your comments. I wrote "(and no objects attesting to a coregency of Amunhotep III and Akhenaten)." Perhaps I could have phrased that better. What I am trying to say is that... more
                  • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Tue Sep 6 09:30
                    I wrote: "So it is Neferneferuaten on that box element and she did not need a wife. Akhenaten did--and that Great Royal Wife was now Meritaten" Kim: "Yes it is Neferneferuaten, female pharaoh, which... more
                    • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Tue Sep 6 09:48
                      This site gives information as to how cranial sutures are used in determining age of skeletal remains:... more
          • Re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Fri Sep 2 10:17
            Hello Joe, Jaime "Meryre II's tomb has the last appearance of the royal Amarna family dated to Year 12 and these representations are followed by Smenkhkare's debut with Meritaten by his side." "I too ... more
            • CorrectionMarianne Luban, Fri Sep 2 10:47
              Joe: "Phantom children only ever depicted/mentioned in illustrations/texts from the Kiya dedicated Meru-Aten. Her original inscriptions were later reinscribed to represent the older surviving... more
        • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 21:19
          I wrote: "However, I do not believe that Akhenaten [Tutankhamun, per Post 17018] was born to Nefertiti until after Year 12. I am with Gabolde in thinking that the child, shielded by fans and attended ... more
          • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Thu Sep 1 08:03
            I wrote: "I don't think the name "Smenkhkare" ever appears in KV62. I will have to confirm. Regardless, there is still KV55, whose earliest door seals bear the name of Tutankhamun--so in his reign."... more
            • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Thu Sep 1 09:34
              Anything that can be known about any sequins from KV62 can be found on page 60 of Reeves' "After Tutankhamun". Interesting chapter, but still nothing verifying Smenkhkare on those sequins.... more
              • Pharaohs and revisionsJaime O, Thu Sep 1 10:08
                Hi Marianne, "I doubt those would have been portrayed as being so important--fans and all. And why kill off that baby? Just because Nefertiti can have been its mother? " Because we know nothing of... more
                • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Thu Sep 1 10:18
                  Marianne, I was already writing my reply when you posted your 17027 and 17028. Thank you for your further comments. However, I still can't see why Smenkhkare can't be Tutankhamun's father, even if he ... more
                  • Ankhkheperure MeritatenJaime O, Thu Sep 1 21:27
                    The answer was in the link I send all along. Stupid me for not seeing all the items listed at once. http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/046gg.html Here, Meritaten is in clear association with the ... more
                    • re: Ankhkheperure MeritatenMarianne Luban, Fri Sep 2 10:58
                      Jaime: "The answer was in the link I send all along. Stupid me for not seeing all the items listed at once. http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/046gg.html Here, Meritaten is in clear association... more
        • Yet another correctionJaime O, Wed Aug 31 12:59
          "c) AFAIK, the coffin is considered to have been reused from a female to fit Akhenaten" I meant to say "a male' instead of 'Akhenaten' Regards, Jaime
      • CorrectionMarianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 10:10
        I should certainly have written "However, I do not believe that TUTANKHAMUN was born to Nefertiti until after Year 12."
    • A small noteJaime O, Tue Aug 30 16:06
      Marianne, you also asked: "If he married Meritaten around Year 12 of Akhenaten, then when was Meritaten the wife of her own father, since she was probably less than 12 in Year 12?" In my scheme, she... more
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