Jaime O
re: the age of kv55
Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:58
95.95.208.52

Hi Marianne,

Thank you for the reply.

"Well, I'm sorry you would characterize my valid comment about "easy" as opposed to "compelling scenario" as a "rant"."

My apologies here. English is not my first language, and by "rant" I meant to say 'discourse', exposing a reasoning. I didn't mean to offend you in any way; please, accept my apologies.

"However, I do not believe that Akhenaten [Tutankhamun, per Post 17018] was born to Nefertiti until after Year 12. I am with Gabolde in thinking that the child, shielded by fans and attended by nurses, in the royal tomb scenes at the time of the death of Meketaten is the long-awaited heir, Tutankhamun."

There is no way to know who the baby was, or who were his parents. Nefertiti's name appears, but that's all. She might have borne a child who died shortly after, as infant mortality was the norm until the past century. We also don't know what relationship Nefertiti had to this child: Tutankhamun wasn't also the only baby around in Amarna, don't forget about Meritaten Tasherit and Ankhsepaaten Tasherit.

"So, obviously, Tut would not have been old enough to rule on his own when his father, Akhenaten, died in Year 17. So others took his place in a chaotic time. "

But others simply didn't take his place. If a king had a boy to succeed, the boy would succeed. See Thutmose III: he was a baby when he became king and his stepmother became his regent. Nobody could take the place of the crown prince. Plus, if Tut was Akhenaten's son, his place wasn't taken, it was given: Neferneferuaten was crowned Akhenaten's coregent at some point late in his reign, which inevitably made her his proclaimed heir. What else a co-ruler will do when his fellow monarch dies? This is anomalous even if Neferneferuaten was Tutankhamun's mother. It also creates havoc if you're planning to have Smenkhkare to become king after Akhenaten: then when? Neferneferuaten succeeded directly her beloved husband; if Smenkhkare came after her, he anteceded Tutankhamun, which would be enough of a premise to hypothecate a father-son relantionship between the two.

"Myself, I don't believe Smenkhkare was ever a coregent with Akhenaten as there were no reason for that at any point. If you insist that he was, then when? Are you sure you want to stick with around Year 12? Because you said: [that Smenkhkare was concurrent with Akhenaten...]"

First of all, one needs to think about the gap in decoration of Meryre II's tomb. Smenkhkare appears after Akhenaten's Year 12, so he didn't become king much time later. To have 5 years (Years 12-17) plus whatever more years a second king could have reigned between Akhenaten and Smenkhkare, enlarges the gap. Meketaten died shortly after Year 12, so to have Smenkhkare as king between Years 13-17 is not unreasonable. Note also that Meritaten is away shorter than Smenkhkare in Meryre II's tomb, which in my preliminary chronology as given in the last post is corroborated by the fact she was around 12 at the time and her husband was about to enter his 20s.

"So you must think that Smenkhkare was married to his own sister, had a child with her, Tut, and then became the husband of Meritaten in Year 12."

I argue he married a sister, likely before he married his niece. I'm interpreting the genetic facts available to us. But the opposite could have happened. We frankly can't know for sure. If he didn't have a wife by the time he married niece, he could be a widower (of his sister, Tut's mother); on the other hand, he could have conceived a bigamous marriage with his sister after marrying Meritaten. This is totally possible and expected from a pharaoh, but it doesn't match the numbers I gave last post.

"Again, when do you think that Meritaten became the wife of her own father--because that is what happened."

I've already answered: "In my scheme, she married her father after Smenkhkare died. I have her aged about 11 years old when Smenkhkare became king, and aged 16 when her father died." (http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=177754;article=17005;title=The%20Ancient%20Near%20Eastern%20Chronology%20Forum)

"There is nothing spelled out more clearly than on the box element from KV62."

If you're reffering to Carter 001k, then yes, she is Great Royal Wife, but she could be retaining her title from her marriage with Smenkhkare. Whatever the case, I believe she married her father, as indicated by the El Amarna letters (I doubt a Babylonian king would address a teenaged widow as 'mistress of the house' when her mother was still around, let alone sending her gifts, something strange because kings send gift to kings, not to princesses).

"But, okay, let's say Smenkhkare married Meritaten in around Year 12 and already had a son by another woman, who was Tut.
Let's say the boy was three years old then. Five years pass, Akenaten dies, and Smenkhkare succeeds for a year. Then Tut comes along in the succession--age 9. Very neat, indeed, but based entirely on supposition."

Please mark that these are your words, not mine. Evidences point out that Akhenaten was succeeded by a woman, Neferneferuaten, and nothing points out for Smenkhkare succeeding her or Akhenaten directly. May I ask you how you interpret the Amarna succession?

"By Year 12, Meritaten, herself, could have been the heir of Akhenaten at any time as his eldest daughter. She did not need to marry an uncle who already had a wife and a son. I can really see no reason why Akhenaten would rather have a brother and a nephew succeed him than his own child."

But as a princess, Meritaten needed to marry and keep the lineage on. It could depend on her any day. The Amarna family also presses a lot of importance on incest and inbreeding, which is shown by genetics, making the generations between Amenhotep III and Tutankhamun the first three generations in the Thutmosid bloodline to inbreed and lay an incestuous succession: Amenhotep III and Tiye were related, Tut's parents were siblings and Tut married Ankhsenamun, his relative. So, the need to marry Meritaten to an uncle who had been married once shouldn't surprise us: Akhenaten is keep the legacy on. This marriage would also allow her to succeed Akhenaten and not fear marriage with her servant, and if she were to inherit the throne, she would have family by her side.

"And, why, by Year 12, would Akhenaten have given up having a son of his own--by anybody?"

If the son wasn't his, he had nothing to lose.

"And what about the letter sent to Akhenaten which began by saying "I hope everyone in your household is well" and included the words "your sons"? I doubt that, if it was known throughout the ANE that the king of Egypt had no sons, someone would have sent him a letter with such an insensitive salutation. Anything is possible, I suppose."

There are many letters in this period. Can you specify? Keep a mind open to what 'your sons' might mean. If kings were capable of calling themselves brothers, and a king's son of his body could be the monarch's nephew, grandson, whatever, then yes, "anything is possible". Where was the second son if this is to be taken literally?

"However, if Tut was the son of the short-lived Smenkhkare, why did he give him absolutely nothing in his reburial in KV55 with his own name on it--not so much as on a magic brick, easily produced? Why did a calcite vase, discovered in KV62, whose cartouches have been reconstructed by a German scholar [his name escapes me just now] as those of Akhenaten and Smenkhkare, side by side, have both cartouches subjected to erasure? You can choose whichever forensic examiner you prefer when it comes to the age-at-death of the KV55 remains, but you have to admit that the coffin belonged to Akhenaten in that tomb and the only name on any magic brick was his."

Let's see then:

a) Don't know. When did the reburial occurred? Note that the coffin where the mummy was found wasn't even meant to be for Akhenaten. And note also that most of Tutankhamun's stuff in his burial wasn't his even, but Neferneferuaten's.
b) But Smenkhkare's name appears some times in the tomb by his own, or with Meritaten's, or his possessions are reused. So, Tut knew his existence and didn't disregard it at all. Can't see how his name and Akhenaten's got erased from that specific box, but it may have something to do with association with the heretic king;
c) AFAIK, the coffin is considered to have been reused from a female to fit Akhenaten, although I haven't read Perepelkin. Insomuch, the mummy was laid like a Thutmosid princess would be (http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/mummypages1/Mummyposition.htm). Whatever the case, one can't disregard forensic results, or else we'd have a 25 year old Akhenaten at death, and mummies in the wrong place are not new to us. About the magical brick: yes, it had his name;

"If Smenkhkare had lost his coffin [s], was the only one available that of the heretic, Akhenaten? I think not. What I think is that the heretic had his own coffin in that tomb and it was not defaced, the cartouches not excised, until a later period."

But how did Akhenaten, having his own family tomb in Amarna, have his coffin back in Thebes? There can be many reasons why a pharaoh wasn't buried in his own coffin.

Regards,
Jaime

  • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 10:09
    Jaime: "Smenkhkare was about 16 years old when he sired Tutankhamun by a sister." I wrote: "You see? It's very easy to say "Oh, well, that KV55 guy has to be Smenkhkare" but it's not very easy to... more
    • re: the age of kv55 — Jaime O, Wed Aug 31 12:58
      • Re: the age of kv55Joe Baker, Fri Sep 2 05:15
        Hi Jaime Meryre II's tomb has the last appearance of the royal Amarna family dated to Year 12 and these representations are followed by Smenkhkare's debut with Meritaten by his side. I too think the... more
        • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Sat Sep 3 07:52
          Hi Joe, thank you for your comments. I appreciate your remarks on Meryre II and they do make sense. To some extent. You and me seem to agree that Meritaten was likelier than not Ankhkhe(t)perure... more
          • re: the age of kv55Kim Sargerson, Mon Sep 5 07:59
            Hi Jaime, Joe I think too much is made of "erasure". There are not always political overtones to this. The calcite jar which apparently had the cartouches of Smenkhkare and Akhenaten side by side,... more
            • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Mon Sep 5 12:23
              Kim: Just a few responses... "It should be remembered that most of Tutankhamun's gravegoods come from a small window of time at the end of the Amarna period. There is one winejar from Amunhotep III... more
              • re: the age of kv55Kim Sargerson, Mon Sep 5 19:05
                Hi Marianne Thank you for your comments. I wrote "(and no objects attesting to a coregency of Amunhotep III and Akhenaten)." Perhaps I could have phrased that better. What I am trying to say is that... more
                • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Tue Sep 6 09:30
                  I wrote: "So it is Neferneferuaten on that box element and she did not need a wife. Akhenaten did--and that Great Royal Wife was now Meritaten" Kim: "Yes it is Neferneferuaten, female pharaoh, which... more
                  • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Tue Sep 6 09:48
                    This site gives information as to how cranial sutures are used in determining age of skeletal remains:... more
        • Re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Fri Sep 2 10:17
          Hello Joe, Jaime "Meryre II's tomb has the last appearance of the royal Amarna family dated to Year 12 and these representations are followed by Smenkhkare's debut with Meritaten by his side." "I too ... more
          • CorrectionMarianne Luban, Fri Sep 2 10:47
            Joe: "Phantom children only ever depicted/mentioned in illustrations/texts from the Kiya dedicated Meru-Aten. Her original inscriptions were later reinscribed to represent the older surviving... more
      • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 21:19
        I wrote: "However, I do not believe that Akhenaten [Tutankhamun, per Post 17018] was born to Nefertiti until after Year 12. I am with Gabolde in thinking that the child, shielded by fans and attended ... more
        • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Thu Sep 1 08:03
          I wrote: "I don't think the name "Smenkhkare" ever appears in KV62. I will have to confirm. Regardless, there is still KV55, whose earliest door seals bear the name of Tutankhamun--so in his reign."... more
          • re: the age of kv55Marianne Luban, Thu Sep 1 09:34
            Anything that can be known about any sequins from KV62 can be found on page 60 of Reeves' "After Tutankhamun". Interesting chapter, but still nothing verifying Smenkhkare on those sequins.... more
            • Pharaohs and revisionsJaime O, Thu Sep 1 10:08
              Hi Marianne, "I doubt those would have been portrayed as being so important--fans and all. And why kill off that baby? Just because Nefertiti can have been its mother? " Because we know nothing of... more
              • re: the age of kv55Jaime O, Thu Sep 1 10:18
                Marianne, I was already writing my reply when you posted your 17027 and 17028. Thank you for your further comments. However, I still can't see why Smenkhkare can't be Tutankhamun's father, even if he ... more
                • Ankhkheperure MeritatenJaime O, Thu Sep 1 21:27
                  The answer was in the link I send all along. Stupid me for not seeing all the items listed at once. http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/046gg.html Here, Meritaten is in clear association with the ... more
                  • re: Ankhkheperure MeritatenMarianne Luban, Fri Sep 2 10:58
                    Jaime: "The answer was in the link I send all along. Stupid me for not seeing all the items listed at once. http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/046gg.html Here, Meritaten is in clear association... more
                    • Ankhkheperure MeritatenMarianne Luban, Fri Sep 2 11:12
                      Reeves wrote that there are 47 sequins of the same type and all from the same die that were on a garment. The sequins have a double cartouche, with one saying "Ankhkheperure" and the other... more
      • Yet another correctionJaime O, Wed Aug 31 12:59
        "c) AFAIK, the coffin is considered to have been reused from a female to fit Akhenaten" I meant to say "a male' instead of 'Akhenaten' Regards, Jaime
    • CorrectionMarianne Luban, Wed Aug 31 10:10
      I should certainly have written "However, I do not believe that TUTANKHAMUN was born to Nefertiti until after Year 12."
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