Jaime O
An alternative genealogy of the 21st Dynasty (Part II)
Wed Nov 30, 2016 18:37
95.95.208.52

(...)

TIMELINE

Numbers will probably facilitate the picture I'm suggesting for this period. I stick to the idea the dates between Years 6-25, from Pinudjem to Menkheperre, all belong to Herihor, who was the physical king at Thebes at the time, and scribes wouldn't be allowed to date by anyone else. After the death of Herihor, whose last days witness social unrest (if one interprets correctly the Banishment Stele), Psusennes I became king of all Egypt and his dates started to be used. In my proposed timetable, Herihor's Year 25 was closely followed by Psusennes I's Year 30, and Menkheperre was attested in both dates. He was later attested under Psusennes I's Years 40 and 48. His career is not one as long as +50 years (held by Kitchen and many others), but merely one of 22 years or so. The longest careers in these lists are those of Herihor (corroborated by his oracle), Psusennes I (corroborated by high year-dates found in the south and Manetho's numbers) and Smendes I (deduced dates). By my own numbers:

Timeline A - 20-21st Dynasty
- Ramses XI, 1064-1029
- Smendes I, 1038-1022
- Psusennes I, 1022-971
- Amunemnisu, 981-977
- Amenemope, 976-967
- King Osorkon, 967-961

Timeline B - Manetho's 20th Dynasty Kings 10-12
- Ramses XI, 1064-1029
- Pinudjem Ia, 1029-1019
- Herihor, 1019-995

Timeline C - The priests
- Ramses XI, 1064-1029
- Amenhotep, c1070-1050
- Piankh , 1050-1044
- Herihor, 1044-(995)
- Pinudjem Ib, 1019-1004
- Djedkhonsuefankh, 1004-1003
- Masaharta, 1003-995
- Menkheperre, 995-974
- Smendes B, 974-c972

I am aware Thijs' thesis of Khaperkhare Pinudjem is controversial and not widely accepted. I myself am a bit reticent yet; but once we assume two Pinudjems and a careful review of the family tree of these king-priests, it doesn't seem to be that unlikely anymore...

Best wishes,
Jaime

  • Hi all, some months ago, while discussing the 21st Dynasty period, I pointed out the existence of the Coptos Stele, in which Queen Henuttawy appears as 'royal mother' beside King Pinudjem. This seems ... more
    • An alternative genealogy of the 21st Dynasty (Part II) — Jaime O, Wed Nov 30 18:37
      • (...) Below, I offer my approximated ages for all these individuals. The cornerstone is Psusennes I's estimated age, which was recently given as 'close to 80'. I begin by giving him c78 years at... more
      • Pinudjem I and MasahartaMarianne Luban, Wed Nov 30 19:30
        "C - The priests - Ramses XI, 1064-1029 - Amenhotep, c1070-1050 - Piankh , 1050-1044 - Herihor, 1044-(995) - Pinudjem Ib, 1019-1004 - Djedkhonsuefankh, 1004-1003 - Masaharta, 1003-995 - Menkheperre,... more
        • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaTory, Fri Dec 2 01:48
          An anonymous year date with the mention of a king within the very same date formula is technically not anonymous. The Egyptians were not ignorant. Shouldn't the default assumption be that the year... more
          • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaJaime O, Fri Dec 2 06:51
            Hi Tory, I appreciate your reply to this thread. "An anonymous year date with the mention of a king within the very same date formula is technically not anonymous. The Egyptians were not ignorant.... more
            • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaAnonymous, Fri Dec 2 10:04
              My question relates to the year date not the identity of the HP. I will rephrase. Unless these HPs were trying to be misunderstood they had a default assumption they expected readers of their linens, ... more
              • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaJaime O, Sat Dec 3 07:50
                Hi Tory, thank you for the reply. "My question relates to the year date not the identity of the HP." My point is this: 'Menkheperre son of King Pinudjem' is an epithet, in no way related to the date. ... more
                • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaTory, Thu Dec 8 23:13
                  Jaime: "My point is this: 'Menkheperre son of king Pinudjem' is an epithet, in no way related to the date." Actually "son of X" is a patronymic not an epithet. Epithets can be earned, acquired, and... more
                  • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaJaime O, Sun Dec 11 17:33
                    Hi Tory, thank you for the reply. "Actually "son of X" is a patronymic not an epithet. Epithets can be earned, acquired, and taken away. Patronymics cannot." Yes. you're right. By 'epithet' I had an... more
                    • HPAs and 21st dynasty chronologyTory, Fri Dec 16 07:13
                      Jaime: Thanks for bringing the Prada paper on tabs, mummy braces, and pendants from the Bab el-Gasus cache reproduced in Černżís notebooks to the forumís attention. Those who have had time to go ... more
        • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaJaime O, Thu Dec 1 06:30
          Hi Marianne. I appreciate a lot your reply. "Queen Meryetamun's burial was "restored" in Year 19 of Pinudjem I, 3rd month of Peret, day 19. The linen for the re-wrapping contained the name of HP... more
          • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaMarianne Luban, Thu Dec 1 12:27
            Dodson and Hilton, "The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt" [page 207] still have HP Masaharta as being a son of Pinudjem I. They also state that Masaharta was responsible for the restoration... more
            • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaJaime O, Thu Dec 1 15:51
              Hi Marianne, thank you for the reply. "Dodson and Hilton, "The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt" [page 207] still have HP Masaharta as being a son of Pinudjem I." Because they: a) are not... more
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