Jaime O
Re: Pinudjem I and Masaharta
Sat Dec 3, 2016 07:50
95.95.208.52

Hi Tory,

thank you for the reply.

"My question relates to the year date not the identity of the HP."

My point is this: 'Menkheperre son of King Pinudjem' is an epithet, in no way related to the date. People who read 'Year X, Menkheperre son of King Pinudjem did something' understood that the man who did something was the same man in many other inscriptions and documents titled HPA and Menkheperre. This is just a minor example, but you can guess the bigger picture.

"Since the linens are not the same as these anonymous years, how did HPs expect others to know whose year they were referring to? The dates aren't there for decoration but for archival like purposes."

I understand your question and I think it's a fair one: how could linens, who were meant to be kept until they were used ("for archival like purposes", as you yourself state), have anonymous dating? I don't think these priests were trying to fool anyone. Priests from future generations, however, were meant to know their history. Who were they to assume linens with Years 6-15 by HP Pinudjem son of Piankh belonged to? They knew how the history of their predecessors flowed, and certainly expected their successors to do the same. These men weren't ignorant. I also suspect that power became so polarized in Egypt after the death of Ramses XI that it fell out of use to name to which king a year-date belonged. As there was no more a king in Egypt, but two (plus chieftains acting king-like?), monarchy and its system lost its grip until the rise of the Libyans.

Best wishes,
Jaime

  • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaAnonymous, Fri Dec 2 10:04
    My question relates to the year date not the identity of the HP. I will rephrase. Unless these HPs were trying to be misunderstood they had a default assumption they expected readers of their linens, ... more
    • Re: Pinudjem I and Masaharta — Jaime O, Sat Dec 3 07:50
      • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaTory, Thu Dec 8 23:13
        Jaime: "My point is this: 'Menkheperre son of king Pinudjem' is an epithet, in no way related to the date." Actually "son of X" is a patronymic not an epithet. Epithets can be earned, acquired, and... more
        • Re: Pinudjem I and MasahartaJaime O, Sun Dec 11 17:33
          Hi Tory, thank you for the reply. "Actually "son of X" is a patronymic not an epithet. Epithets can be earned, acquired, and taken away. Patronymics cannot." Yes. you're right. By 'epithet' I had an... more
          • HPAs and 21st dynasty chronologyTory, Fri Dec 16 07:13
            Jaime: Thanks for bringing the Prada paper on tabs, mummy braces, and pendants from the Bab el-Gasus cache reproduced in Černżís notebooks to the forumís attention. Those who have had time to go ... more
            • Re: HPAs and 21st dynasty chronologyJaime O, Fri Dec 16 18:14
              Hi Tory, I appreciate your further comments. "Those who have had time to go through it have to be struck, as I was, over the number of items belonging to "HPA Pinudjem son of KING PSUSENNES... more
              • Re: HPAs and 21st dynasty chronologyTory, Sat Dec 17 00:21
                Hi Jamie: To be honest, although I greatly respect Thijs I have not read all of his papers. I do not agree with him, and others, that the one explict text linking the first year of the wHm-mswt to a... more
                • Re: HPAs and 21st dynasty chronologyJaime O, Mon Dec 19 16:17
                  Hi Tory, I appreciate your reply. "To be honest, although I greatly respect Thijs I have not read all of his papers. I do not agree with him, and others, that the one explict text linking the first... more
                  • Re: HPAs and 21st dynasty chronologyTory, Tue Dec 20 11:21
                    Hi Jamie: Iím afraid I canít comment on Adís theory to separate king Pinudjem from HPA Pinudjem I until Iíve read his views. But I certainly do not put much stock in ď12 kings of DiospolisĒ for the... more
                    • Re: HPAs and 21st dynasty chronologyJaime O, Wed Dec 21 16:03
                      Hi Tory I appreciate your further comments. " Iím afraid I canít comment on Adís theory to separate king Pinudjem from HPA Pinudjem I until Iíve read his views. " I haven't read all, just a few,... more
Click here to receive daily updates