Tory
Σέσογχωσις
Wed Dec 21, 2016 18:21
112.198.102.105

Hi Jamie:

Σέσογχωσις (Sesonchosis) is the Libyan name Shoshenq. So your question avoids the obvious one which is why is the name Senusret I deleted and replaced with the name of a Libyan pharaoh? Where did Senusret I go? He got turned into Shoshenq I. The only explanation is that Manetho/Ptolemy confused a king list fragment which had the order Amenemope, Shoshenq and he didn't know where to put this piece of the puzzle except in his defective 12th dynasty list as << Σέσογχωσις, Άμμανέμου υίός >>, and thus confusing these kings with Amenemhat I and his son Senusret I. What this tells us is that Manetho/Ptolemy did not even know Shoshenq is a Libyan name and that it cannot belong to the period of Egyptian history where he accidentally put it. If this is a stretch, why is the name Shoshenq in his 12th dynasty list?

Other examples almost similar to this happen in the 18th and 19th dynasties. Orus was not the name of ANY 18th dynasty king. He is a king from the list of gods and immortals transposed into the 18th dynasty and confused with Amenhotep III or IV. Egypt was also never ruled by Polybus! Twosret was a female Egyptian, not a male Greek named Polybus. These kinds of blunders even happen much closer to Manetho's/Ptolemy's own time. The Agyptiaka might be superior to anything appearing in Greek before it, but it is still a defective Greek composition of Roman date. It's author was not fluent in Egyptian and could not always read the hieroglyphs correctly.

The EKL cannot be trusted in its entirety, but the part with the Menelik dynasty beginning in the 10th century BCE is the historically verifiable part. The list was made by a government official and given to C. F. Rey in the 1920s. So it is vulnerable to the same shortcomings which beset king lists produced by officials in Assyria, Babylonia, and Egypt especially in the earliest portions of all these king lists. I summarize my dates here.

Kings of Egypt

21st dynasty
Nesbanebdjed I (1073-1067)
Herihor (1067-1052)
Pinudjem I (1052-1013)
Psusennes I (1048-1007)
GC Shoshenq A (1013-?)
Amenemnisu (1007-1003)
Amenemope (1003-994)
Shoshenq I (994-945)
Osorkon the Elder (945-936)
Siamun (936-919)
Psusennes III (919-910)
Psusennes II (910-897)

22nd dynasty
Shoshenq II/C (905-873)
Osorkon I (874-859)
Takeloth I/II (859-835)
Harsiese A (856-844)
Pedubast I (849-831)
Osorkon II (847-819)
Iuput I/II (835-782)
Shoshenq III (832-793)
Piankhy/Py (803-771)
Peftchauawybast (793-782)
Nimlot (???)

23rd dynasty
Pedubast II (813-788)
Osorkon III/B = Iny (788-780)
Rudamon I (780-755)
Pamiu (780-770)
Shoshenq V (770-734)
Osorkon IV/F (755-713)
Kashta (748-735)
Takeloth III (732-726)

24th dynasty
Bakenrenef (739-734)

25th dynasty
Soabaka/Soa/Σαβάκων (735-716)
Sebatka/Σεβιχως (716-690)
Taharqa (690-644)
Rudamon II (664-658)
Tanutamon (658-654), he left Memphis in 657


Kings/Queens of Kush

Queen Makeda (996-965)
Menelik (965-940)
Hanyon (940-939)
Sera (939-913)
Amonhotep Zagdur (913-882)
Aksumay Ramissu (882-862)
Awseyo Sera (862-824)
Tawasya (824-803)
Piankhy/Py (803-771)
Alara (771-748)
Kashta (748-735)
Soabaka/Soa (735-723)
Queen Kannsa (723-713)
Taharqa (713-664)
Rudamon II (664-658)
Tanutamon (658-654)

Regards
Tory


  • Re: HPAs and 21st dynasty chronologyJaime O, Wed Dec 21 16:03
    Hi Tory I appreciate your further comments. " Iím afraid I canít comment on Adís theory to separate king Pinudjem from HPA Pinudjem I until Iíve read his views. " I haven't read all, just a few,... more
    • Σέσογχωσις — Tory, Wed Dec 21 18:21
      • Re: Σέσογχωσι&#Jaime O, Thu Dec 22 07:51
        Hi Tory, Thanks again for the reply. "Where did Senusret I go? He got turned into Shoshenq I." Your theory of having Shoshenq I in between mid-21st Dynasty makes more sense to me as this discussion... more
        • ΣέσογχωσιςTory, Thu Dec 22 21:02
          Hi Jaime: If anyone can explain to me what possessed Manetho to put Σέσογχωσις, Άμμανέμου... more
          • SesonchosisJaime O, Sat Dec 24 06:48
            Dear Tory, I appreciate your reply. "If anyone can explain to me what possessed Manetho to put Σέσογχωσις,... more
            • Re: SesonchosisTory, Sun Dec 25 19:21
              Jaime: Nesipaqashuty. Not sure what you mean. He is not beyond 100 in later Siamun. Nesipaqashuty (i) does not make it to Siamun. The year 5 mention (burial of Neskhons) of Nesipaqashuty (i) is... more
              • Re: SesonchosisJaime O, Sat Dec 31 12:37
                Hi Tory First of all, happy new year. For you and everyone else on this forum. On Nesipaqashuty. I messed this one badly; my bad here. Thanks for clarifying. In theory, it is not impossible that... more
                • Re: SesonchosisTory, Mon Jan 2 11:14
                  Hi Jaime: If he is not Shoshenq III then there are no monuments, no door jambs, no lintels, no walls, no temples, no priestly annals, no donation stelae, no geneaologies, no scarabs, no tomb, and no... more
                  • Re: SesonchosisJaime O, Sat Jan 7 18:41
                    Hi Tory, thank you for the reply. "If he is not Shoshenq III then there are no monuments, no door jambs, no lintels, no walls, no temples, no priestly annals, no donation stelae, no geneaologies, no... more
                    • Re: SesonchosisKim Sargerson, Sun Jan 8 12:46
                      Hi Jime, Tory In post 16339 on 7/4/2016 Tory wrote "I argue Taharqa became a real king of Kush when his father died, but king in the Kushite definition and more or less "chieftain" from the Egyptian... more
                    • Re: SesonchosisRobert P. Killian, Sun Jan 8 09:15
                      Jaime, Tory and Kim, Question,---was 732BC, the 13th year of the Assyrian King Tiglath-Pileser III? Question,---was 732BC, the death year of Retzin, King of Damascus? Question,---was 732BC, the death ... more
        • re: OrusRich McQuillen, Thu Dec 22 08:44
          "You're totally right about Orus and other names." -- We have a possible lead from the Greeks on an Orus who was a king, about at that time. "Orus 1. The first king of the Troezenians, whose land was ... more
          • re: OrusJaime O, Thu Dec 22 15:57
            Dear Rich, "We have a possible lead from the Greeks on an Orus who was a king, about at that time. [...] This is a vague reference; the name does look like the Egyptian Horus. This could be some... more
      • re: TwosretRich McQuillen, Thu Dec 22 01:13
        Hi Tory, Your article is almost entirely correct and a wonderful and nearly prototypical read for any Historian. Manetho does have flaws and different versions have different flaws. And it is hard to ... more
        • re: TwosretTory, Thu Dec 22 02:19
          Hi Rich Twosret was indeed a pharaoh, not a governor of some Libyan nome. But she does not have to be female-pharaoh in Egypt at the time of the Torjan war unless one is trying to salvage the... more
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