Jaime O
Re: Σέσογχωσι&#
Thu Dec 22, 2016 07:51
95.95.208.52

Hi Tory,

Thanks again for the reply.

"Where did Senusret I go? He got turned into Shoshenq I."

Your theory of having Shoshenq I in between mid-21st Dynasty makes more sense to me as this discussion evolves. Don't get me wrong, I don't totally disregard your position. I just disagree when you said that kings couldn't fall from these lists by accident. We see something similar happening in Theophilus's copy of Josephus, between Rathotis and Acencheres II. I wouldn't be surprised if Shoshenq I's name got lost. Siamun's likely did, although your theory is equally possible.

"The Agyptiaka might be superior to anything appearing in Greek before it, but it is still a defective Greek composition of Roman date. It's author was not fluent in Egyptian and could not always read the hieroglyphs correctly."

I've been having my doubts about Manetho's historicity given these and some other points you've raised elsewhere. You're totally right about Orus and other names.

"The EKL cannot be trusted in its entirety, but the part with the Menelik dynasty beginning in the 10th century BCE is the historically verifiable part. The list was made by a government official and given to C. F. Rey in the 1920s. So it is vulnerable to the same shortcomings which beset king lists produced by officials in Assyria, Babylonia, and Egypt especially in the earliest portions of all these king lists."

Ok, but some things seem to be missing from this list. I've come to accept that the linen with Year [4]0 of King Piye actually reads 40, as many other scholars have argued; but per your interpretation, the list gives 32 years to Piye. This is just an example. The rest of the list seems to copiously emulate what an Egyptian king list would look like: for example, we have a sequence of Herhor-Qadamawi Wiyankhi I-Qadamawi Pinotsem I-Dagmawi Pinotsem II-Massaherta, which is clearly = Herihor-Piankh-Pinudjem I-Pinudjem II (?)-Masaharta. Later, we have a queen Makeda, clearly Maatkare.

I appreciate that you listed your chronology here. It seems like you've come to play with the very old idea that Urdaname is not Tandamane = Tanutamun, but a king Rudamun. I raised this issue some time ago here, but no one seems to have noticed. I stick to the scholars' opinion from the 1950s that Urdaname will hardly convert to Tandamane: Rudamun is the best fit, so either there was one Rudamun or two (my position, and yours apparently). The most problematic thing about your chronology for the Ethiopian kings is Taharka's reign-length, unless he didn't count his years in Nubia once he became king in Egypt.

Best wishes,
Jaime

  • ΣέσογχωσιςTory, Wed Dec 21 18:21
    Hi Jamie: Σέσογχωσις (Sesonchosis) is the Libyan name Shoshenq. So your question avoids the obvious one which is why is the name Senusret I deleted... more
    • Re: Σέσογχωσι&# — Jaime O, Thu Dec 22 07:51
      • ΣέσογχωσιςTory, Thu Dec 22 21:02
        Hi Jaime: If anyone can explain to me what possessed Manetho to put Σέσογχωσις, Άμμανέμου... more
        • SesonchosisJaime O, Sat Dec 24 06:48
          Dear Tory, I appreciate your reply. "If anyone can explain to me what possessed Manetho to put Σέσογχωσις,... more
          • Re: SesonchosisTory, Sun Dec 25 19:21
            Jaime: Nesipaqashuty. Not sure what you mean. He is not beyond 100 in later Siamun. Nesipaqashuty (i) does not make it to Siamun. The year 5 mention (burial of Neskhons) of Nesipaqashuty (i) is... more
            • Re: SesonchosisJaime O, Sat Dec 31 12:37
              Hi Tory First of all, happy new year. For you and everyone else on this forum. On Nesipaqashuty. I messed this one badly; my bad here. Thanks for clarifying. In theory, it is not impossible that... more
              • Re: SesonchosisTory, Mon Jan 2 11:14
                Hi Jaime: If he is not Shoshenq III then there are no monuments, no door jambs, no lintels, no walls, no temples, no priestly annals, no donation stelae, no geneaologies, no scarabs, no tomb, and no... more
                • Re: SesonchosisJaime O, Sat Jan 7 18:41
                  Hi Tory, thank you for the reply. "If he is not Shoshenq III then there are no monuments, no door jambs, no lintels, no walls, no temples, no priestly annals, no donation stelae, no geneaologies, no... more
                  • Re: SesonchosisKim Sargerson, Sun Jan 8 12:46
                    Hi Jime, Tory In post 16339 on 7/4/2016 Tory wrote "I argue Taharqa became a real king of Kush when his father died, but king in the Kushite definition and more or less "chieftain" from the Egyptian... more
                  • Re: SesonchosisRobert P. Killian, Sun Jan 8 09:15
                    Jaime, Tory and Kim, Question,---was 732BC, the 13th year of the Assyrian King Tiglath-Pileser III? Question,---was 732BC, the death year of Retzin, King of Damascus? Question,---was 732BC, the death ... more
                    • Re: SesonchosisJaime O, Sun Jan 8 16:10
                      Hi Bob, thank you for your questions. Allow me to respond for myself. A) 732 BCE was the 13th year of Tiglath-Pileser III's reign. It is not my belief that any dates lower that 911 BCE (Adad-Nirari... more
      • re: OrusRich McQuillen, Thu Dec 22 08:44
        "You're totally right about Orus and other names." -- We have a possible lead from the Greeks on an Orus who was a king, about at that time. "Orus 1. The first king of the Troezenians, whose land was ... more
        • re: OrusJaime O, Thu Dec 22 15:57
          Dear Rich, "We have a possible lead from the Greeks on an Orus who was a king, about at that time. [...] This is a vague reference; the name does look like the Egyptian Horus. This could be some... more
    • re: TwosretRich McQuillen, Thu Dec 22 01:13
      Hi Tory, Your article is almost entirely correct and a wonderful and nearly prototypical read for any Historian. Manetho does have flaws and different versions have different flaws. And it is hard to ... more
      • re: TwosretTory, Thu Dec 22 02:19
        Hi Rich Twosret was indeed a pharaoh, not a governor of some Libyan nome. But she does not have to be female-pharaoh in Egypt at the time of the Torjan war unless one is trying to salvage the... more
Click here to receive daily updates