Jaime O
Re: Kushite Chronology
Wed Feb 1, 2017 12:52

Dear Tory,

I wrote: "I no longer assume the existence or need of an earlier Usermaatre Shoshenq, as long as Shoshenq III and Osorkon II overlap."

You replied: "Noted."

But he we need to be cautious. I wanted to tackle the issue, but Kim anticipated me on Post 17450. Briefly: we have to consider the fact that Osorkon II had adult great-grandchildren by Year 28 of Shoshenq III. In your chronology, Shoshenq III becomes king about Year 17 of Osorkon II, so he must have been old enough to have adult grandchildren and possibly young great-grandchildren: his children alone certainly had grown heirs by the time Osorkon II died (about ten to fifteen years after Year 17). This is conceivable on anyone's chronology, especially if Osorkon II sired Shoshenq D in his teen years, and Shoshenq D's successors were sons of his youth (given that priests would likelier than not be induced when they were very young, it is equally possible, if not plausible, to believe these same priests married and fathered children at a young age). Supposing Osorkon II didn't have any children before Shoshenq D, and that this son was born when Osorkon was c16 years old, then Osorkon II might as well have been a grandfather at the age of c32, and a great-grandfather in his 50s.

Nevertheless, I will raise the issue of the Libyan genealogy as you reconstruct. HPA Osorkon B was King Takelot's oldest son, and equally his mother Karoma's eldest son too. It is equally possible that he was just the oldest surviving male son by the time things got complicated in Thebes in Takelot's Year 11. Whatever the case, he claims to be older than Osorkon II, if they had been half-brothers. All of this means that Osorkon II must be old enough to have male issue capable of important offices at the time of his ascension, which is mid-Takelot I/II in your timeline; Osorkon B must be older than Osorkon II by this time and Takelot I/II too. Given that you have Osorkon B as son of uncle and niece, both partners were presumably a generation apart from each other; however, had HPA Nimlot (Osorkon B's grandfather) been older than Takelot I/II, and had Karomama gave birth to Osorkon B in her mid-teens, then it's possible to close the gap. The longer the overlap between Osorkon II and Shoshenq III, the older the former must be at ascension, and the older all his immediate predecessors must be at ascension and death. I have nothing against high ages of death from time to time, but in your model the average age of death between Menkheperre through Psusennes II, until Takelot I/II, is already too high for the ancient world.

- Menkheperre, dies aged 62;
- Pinudjem III, dies aged 59;
- Psusennes II, dies aged 79;
- (Maatkare presumably dies before Osorkon reaches the throne);
- Shoshenq II/C, dies aged 67;
- Osorkon I, dies aged 61;
- Takelot I/II, dies aged 68;

The average of age at death is 66 years. I've also noticed how you've attributed Year 10, burial of HPA Pinudjem, to Pinudjem son of Menkheperre under Year 10 of Shoshenq I, but this same priest was manufacturing linens under King Siamun, at least to his Year 8 as far as I know.

Allow me to speculate. Using c940 as a starting point for the birth of Shoshenq II/C, we might postulate Osorkon I's birth as falling around c920, like you have it. If so, then HPA Nimlot could have been born in 902, and Takelot I/II in 900 (by different wives?). We might postulate that Nimlot could have possibly fathered Karomama at the young age of 16, thus she would be born about c886. Allowing Karomama to bear Osorkon B at a similar age, then he could have been born in c870, and Takelot I/II would be c30 years old when his firstborn son came to the world, during the reign of Osorkon I. Osorkon B thus would have a loyalty name, and it is totally expected that a man, at any point in History, would not have children until his early 30s. Osorkon II could be born about two years later, in c868, from a different wife (this requires that Takelot I/II was married simultaneously to two or more wives even before he was king). Osorkon II would be c21 years old when he became king in 847, and Shoshenq D could already be c5 years old, i.e. Osorkon II fathered a child at the age of 16. We should keep in mind that Shoshenq D's mother was a king's daughter, so it's possible that she was Osorkon II's sister: she might have been a bit younger (14??) or a bit older (maybe 17-18). Allowing Shoshenq D to father Takelot B around the ages of 16-20, Osorkon II would be grandfather of a boy aged about 36, in 836-832 (Takelot B would equally be named after his great-grandfather, who died about the same time; kinda reminds me of how Edward VII wanted to call his minor grandson Albert, later George VI, after his father Prince Albert, given that the boy was born on the anniversary of the prince's death and Queen Victoria would be losing her cool on that date). Takelot B could father Pediese, again, about the ages 16-20, around c816, and Peftjauawybast could be born around c796. I fear this is becoming too extensive, so allow me:

- Shoshenq II/C, born c940
- Osorkon I, born c920
- Takelot I/II, born c900
- Osorkon II, born c868
- Shoshenq D, born c852
- Takelot B, born c834
- Pediese, born c816
- Peftjauawybast, born c796
Average generational gap of c18 years

Unfortunately (and this is one of the problems I face with your reconstruction), it seems impossible to have Peftjauawybast as an adult in Year 28 of Shoshenq III if we overlap him with mid Osorkon II. In fact, my estimations put his birth about 10 years after your date for Year 28! We might also not extend the genealogy further and discuss more estimated dates, given that we'd have something like this (per your own numbers): Maatkare B, c958; Psusennes II, c976; Pinudjem III, c1044; Menkheperre, c1069. This is 24,8 years per generation = 25 years, although you have Psusennes II been born after his father has been dead for years (Post 17263).

" Having said this, I see no plausible way for Manetho, Africanus, or Eusebius to know where overlaps take place and how to account for them within individual dynasties. Eusebius states that dynasties overlapped but not any of the reigns listed within each dynasty. We can suggest where overlaps are because we have sources Africanus and Eusebius didn’t have. So for me its either 25 years or 40 years for Pedubast, or both figures are wrong. They both can’t be right, unless its by an accident."

I understand your approach. However, the points you raise are not without some ethical questions, such as: should we not dismiss Manetho totally? Should we discard Africanus or Eusebius? Or both? One might also ponder about who to choose, when and why. I see no problem with Pedubast II, whether another Usermaatre or not, having 40 years; your model certainly runs into problems with that, as you need HPA Takelot to be serving Pedubast II in his Year 23 in Thebes, and thus 40 years for Pedubast II would make him overlap Shoshenq III, who has a loyal HPA Osorkon B at Thebes during the last half of his reign. Nevertheless, I agree with you about mistrusting the comments added by epitomizers: it seems like these authors had their own chronological reconstructions, and comments like 'during his reign X happen' or 'this king should be identified with Y mythological figure' are resultant of required synchronisms with fixed events in History, or less reliable events perpetrated by classic sources and their own chronology (I'm reminiscing the flood of Deucalion as mentioned by Africanus in his entry for Misphragmuthosis in the 18th Dynasty list).

" I have years 1-9 of Shoshenq II/C at Bubastis overlapping years 6-14 of Hedjheqare Psusennes II at Tanis (no coregency)."

I'm aware of this, but how so? What is the link for this overlap, or is it just an approximated estimate of Shoshenq II becoming king about c5 years after Psusennes II did?

" If I wanted to keep playing the Manetho numbers game I could say the next 21/22 years of Shoshenq II/C after the death of Psusennes II were his independent years and these are the years that got recorded by Manetho. Maybe this is what happened, I don’t know [...]"

I'm just pointing out (and I'm not the first one to do so) the coincidence of Sesonchosis reigning for 21 years, which is exactly the amount of years Eusebius adds to Psusennes II's reign in comparison with Africanus. Because I don't want to totally discard these numbers, I've conjured that it would be possible that excessive years in both copies could represent years of overlap. I also noticed how it could equally work with Pedubast II for 40 years (Africanus) or 25 (Eusebius), and how once we synchronize Year 6 of Bakerenef with Year 37 of Shoshenq V, as evidence in the Serapeum seems to require, then we would get Bakerenef rising to the throne in Sais about 31 years after Shoshenq V did it in Tanis (or elsewhere close), exactly the time attributed by Africanus to Zet, the last king of the 23rd Dynasty. I believe Zet fell out of the list in Eusebius, given the need to keep a pattern of 3 kings for +40 years. This scenario might be even likelier if Eusebius got hands on an earlier version of Manetho's book, another scenario equally likely as popular books were rewritten and edited from time to time in the ancient world.

I've just recently noticed a similar discrepancy in the total numbers of years attributed to the 20th Dynasty (135 years in one, 178 years in the other), so I've applied a similar logic: 135 until Ramses XI's death, at which point Smendes I and Herihor ascended the throne at about the same time; the other 43 years are Herihor for 15/16 years, plus Pinudjem I for the remaining 27). On this model, Herihor and Smendes I would become kings about c1030, Pinudjem I rises to the throne in c1015 and Psusennes I in c1000 (I don't have problems with a 26 years reign for Smendes I as long as he overlaps southern kings); allowing Menkheperre to already be HPA by Year 25, which would become Pinudjem I's (the language of the stela is ambiguous enough about Menkheperre's status at the time), then he might have become a northern HPA in Year 1 like you have him, and his Year 48 would fall about c968, just 14 years before Psusennes I's death on this model.

I'm reworking my chronology at the moment, so this is to some extend experimental. It's going to take a while, because free time is what I lack the most right now (you may have noticed it for the delaying responses). I'm also trying to play with the EKL and some of your resolutions for the Nubian period, because I've always flirted with the NChronologist positioning of Piye closer to Shoshenq III than Shoshenq V. It seems to fit better some facts and resolves some minor anomalies.

"But Manetho labels these “three kings for 25 years” with the letters Gamma, Delta, Epsilon. So Sesonchis cannot be both Alpha and Gamma, or Alpha and Delta, or Alpha and Epsilon."

I forgot to add that in such interpretation, Africanus added numbers that shouldn't be added. 25 years and 42 years are summary of periods, but Africanus interpreted it as measures of sequential periods of time, so he gave a total of 120 years to the dynasty when something closer to 49-69 might be closer to factual truth. Gamma, Delta, Epsilon are misinterpretations that Africanus made of Alpha and Beta, plus Hepta of the 21st Dynasty.

I have my personal doubts about this resolution. As time goes by, I mistrust it more and more; so, allowing me to repeat myself: " this is to some extend experimental".

" “Year 48 OF HPA Menkheperre” is then 48 years after Year 25 of Psusennes I and falling in the middle of Siamun’s reign."

Read above.

" I’ve been hinting that I’m ready to reject anything Manetho says in any of the surviving copies, at even the slightest indication he might be wrong, because he is proven not to be reliable most of the time. It is the law of averages. My having Šōbaka at 735-716 is a rejection of Manetho, not an endorsement."

You've postulated before as some sort of endorsement, by attributing Shabaka 20 years of reign given that one copy of Manetho gave him 8 years of reign, and another one gave 12. See Post 17268. You seem to reject that interpretation now, which is fine, but monumental evidence tells us Shabaka reigned to at least a Year 15, which indicated a reign of minimum 14-15 years. He could have reigned longer, it's perfectly possible, but a Year 15 is still a Year 15. Where are 19/20 years of reign coming from?

" We can second guess Mariette’s plan of the Serapeum all day long, but I accept his word that the stela dated Year 2 of Šōbaka was found by him in the same room, quote, “where the cartouches of Shoshenq V and Bakenrenef were inscribed.” He also says the cartouche of Šōbatka was found in this room."

My bad, I had forgotten this. Haven't slept much in a while... thank you for the reminder.

On SIPA: I feel further replies of mine to this particular point will eventually fall short of my knowledge; you seem to champion the interpretation of SIPA = Shabataka. Is there any way possible that SIPA could equally serve Shabaka?

Honest regards,

  • Re: Kushite ChronologyTory, Thu Jan 26 06:54
    Hi Jaime: I no longer assume the existence or need of an earlier Usermaatre Shoshenq, as long as Shoshenq III and Osorkon II overlap. Noted. My alternative proposal is that Petubastis of the 23rd... more
    • Re: Kushite Chronology — Jaime O, Wed Feb 1 12:52
      • A correctionJaime O, Wed Feb 1 16:36
        Dear Tory, I feel the need to make a correction. I wrote: " - Menkheperre, dies aged 62;" Actually, on Post 17263 (last time you updated us on your dates for individuals of early 21st Dynasty), you... more
        • Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Thu Feb 2 14:29
          Until Tory returns... "we have to consider the fact that Osorkon II had adult great-grandchildren by Year 28 of Shoshenq III." This is indeed the problem (and probably the next generation adult too,... more
          • Re: Libyans and KushitesJaime O, Fri Feb 3 07:42
            Dear Kim, thank you for the reply. I fear I did not responded the last time you replied to a post of mine, which happened because posts started to accumulate and time was lacking. My apologies. "... more
            • Re: Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Fri Feb 3 11:39
              Hi Jaime "the fact that Osorkon II had a grandson named Takelot (B) might suggest the namesake king was alive to see the birth of the third generation after his." I agree, in fact have been arguing... more
              • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 7 03:09
                Hi Kim, Jaime: Sorry for the delay. When the wife loses her patience with ancient chronology I cannot go near a history book or even a computer keyboard for several days. Here are my Egyptian dates... more
                • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 7 03:11
                  Kim wrote: On the Apis of 26 Taharqa: Numerically, you can make this work (although in accepting the EKL reign length of 49, you reject the detail of his immediate predecessors, a queen for 10 years... more
                  • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 7 03:12
                    Kim wrote: Ok. Does this now mean that you have an “undated” Apis bull between 2 Shabaka and 14 Taharqa, which are separated by 32-33 years? Is the “year 4” docket doing its duty in everyone's theory ... more
                    • Re: Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Mon Feb 20 14:31
                      Hi Tory I have now had a chance to go through your massive and detailed presentation. First, the minor corrections that I have picked up on, that you might want to incorporate in case they lead to... more
                    • Re: Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Mon Feb 13 11:39
                      Hi Tory Ian Mladjov (once a regular contributor to this forum) has an article in Birmingham Egyptlogy journal, which can be downloaded free here... more
                    • Addendum: a mangled Saite DistanzangabeTory, Tue Feb 7 08:57
                      The stela Tawfik discovered and published by Handoussa states that the priest Psamtek was born in Year 1 of Nekau II, III-smw 1, and that he died in Year 27, IV-3kt 28. His lifespan is given as 65... more
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