Tory
Re: Libyans and Kushites
Tue Feb 7, 2017 03:09
112.198.101.118

Hi Kim, Jaime:

Sorry for the delay. When the wife loses her patience with ancient chronology I cannot go near a history book or even a computer keyboard for several days.

Here are my Egyptian dates for Nesbanebdjed I down to Tanutamon:
1073-1067  Nesbanebdjed I
1067-1052 Herihor
1052-1013 Pinudjem I son of Payankh
1052-1048 Amunemnisut son of Nesbanebdjed I
1048-1003 Psusennes I son of Nesbanebdjed I
1003-994 Amenemope son of Psusennes I
994-945 Sheshonq I son of GC Sheshonq A
945-936 Osorkon the Elder son of GC Sheshonq A
936-919 Siamun son of Osorkon the Elder
919-910 Psusennes II son of GC Sheshonq A?
910-897 Psusennes III son of Pinudjem III

905-873 Sheshonq II son of Osorkon the Elder
874-859 Osorkon I son of Sheshonq II
859-835 Takeloth I/II son of Osorkon I
856-844 Harsiese son of Osorkon I
849-831 Pedubast I son of Harsiese
847-819 Osorkon II son of Takeloth I/II
835-783 Iuput I/II son of Pedubast I
832-794 Sheshonq III son of Pedubast I
794-783 Peftchauawybast

813-788 Pedubast II
788-780 Osorkon III/B son of Takeloth I/II
780-770 Pamiu son of Osorkon III/B
780-755 Rudamon I son of Osorkon III/B
770-734 Sheshonq V son of Pamiu
755-715 Osorkon IV/F son of Rudamon I (moved to Bubastis in 732)
732-726 Takeloth III son of Osorkon IV/F

739-734 Bakenrenef son of Chief Tefnakhte

735-716 Šōbaka son of Kashta
716-710 Šōbatka son of Šōbaka
713-664 Taharqa son of Šōbaka (king only of Kush 713-710, overlap but no coregency with Šōbatka)
664-658 Rudamon II son of Šōbaka
658 Gasiyo Eskikatir
658-654 Tanutamon
For the Theban HPAs I have the following based on the Prada catalouge (ČERNÝ MSS. 17.125.1-17) showing that Pinujdem son of Psusennes I is not the same person as Pinudjem son of Menkheperre:

Pinudjem I: born ca.1089, HPA 1067-1052 (Herihor), king 1052-1013
Menkheperre son of Pinudjem I: born ca.1069, HPA 1052-1004 (Pinudjem I, Amunemnisut, Psusennes I, Amemempope)
Nesbanebdjed II son of Menkheperre: born ca.1049, HPA 1004-1000 (Amenemope)
Pinudjem II son of Pinudjem I: born ca.1030, HPA 1000-998 (Amenemope)
Pinudjem III son of Psusennes I: born ca.1018, HPA 998-996 (Amenemope)
Pinudjem IV son of Menkheperre: born ca.1044, HPA 996-985 (under Amenemope, Sheshonq I)
Iuput son of King Sheshonq I: HPA 985-950 (under Sheshonq I)
Psusennes III son of Pinudjem III: born ca.970, HPA 950-910 (under Sheshonq I, Osorkon Elder, Siamun, Psusennes II), king 910-897

So for the line descending from Pinudjem I there are 2 generations. Pinudjem IV! was the last of this family to serve as HPA and he was buried in year 10 of Sheshonq I (985). The line of HPAs descending from Psusennes I is also just 2 generations.

From Osorkon the Elder down to Peftjauawybast A, I have the following:

Osorkon the Elder: born ca.1001, king 945-936
Psusennes II: born ca.998, king 919-910
Maatkare B daughter of Psusennes II: born ca.980
Sheshonq II: born ca.965, HPA 910-905, king 905-873
Osorkon I: born ca.945, king 874-859
Takeloth I/II: born ca.925, king 859-835
Osorkon II: born ca.905, king 847-819
Osorkon B: born ca.874, HPA 849-788, king 788-780
Great Hereditary Prince Sheshonq D: born ca.885, died ca.823
Nimlot G: son of Djedmutiuesankh, born ca.884, general of Herakleopolis in year 16 (832), HPA of Thebes very briefly in year 21 (827), his son Takeloth E/F became HPA of Thebes in 827
Nimlot C: son by Wedjmutankhes (Pasenhor Stela), born ca.883, he became general of Herakleopolis in 827
Hornakht C: born ca. 857, HPA of Tanis at age 10 in year 1 of Osorkon II, death at age 11?
GC Takeloth B: born ca.859
Pedieset A: born ca.839, age 34 in year 28 of Sheshonq III (805), age 60 in year 2 of Pamiu (779)
Peftjauawybast A: born ca.823, age 18 in year 28 of Sheshonq III (805)

This is 8 generations, 178/175 years, 22.25/21.875 years per average generation. More than 10 generations for a male pedigree throughout should be 25-30 years per average generation.

Here is my complete sequence of HPAs and Gods Wives.

Pinudjem I: born ca.1089, HPA 1067-1052, king 1052-1013
Menkheperre son of Pinudjem I: born ca.1069, HPA 1052-1004
Masaharta son of Pinudjem I: HPA 1037-1029
DjedKhonsefankh son of Pinudjem I: HPA 1029-1028
Nesbanebdjed II son of Menkheperre: born ca.1049, HPA 1004-1000
Pinudjem II son of Pinudjem I: born ca.1030, HPA 1000-998
Pinudjem III son of Psusennes I: born ca.1020, HPA 998-996
Pinudjem IV son of Menkheperre: born ca.1044, HPA 996-985
Iuput son of Sheshonq I: HPA 985-950
Psusennes III son of Pinudjem III: born ca.970, HPA 950-910, king 910-897
Sheshonq II: born ca.965, HPA 910-905, king 905-873
Harsiese A son of Sheshonq II: born ca.940, HPA 905-874
Nesbanebdjed III son of Osorkon I: born ca.925, HPA 874-861
Iuwelot son of Osorkon I: born ca.923, HPA 861-855
Nimlot F son of Osorkon I: born ca.920, HPA 855-849
Osorkon B: born ca.874, HPA 849-780, king 788-780
Harsiese B son of Pedubast I?: HPA 845-827
Nimlot G son of Osorkon II: born ca.884, HPA 827
Takeloth E/F son of Nimlot G: HPA 827-791
Osorkon IV/F son of Rudamon I: born ca.792, HPA 780-755, king 755-715
Shepenwepet I daughter of Osorkon IV/F (installed by her father in 755)
Amonardis I daughter of Kashta (installed by her father in 748)
Shepenwepet II daughter of Taharqa (installed by her father in ca.700)
Amonardis II daughter of Rudamon II (installed by her father in 664)
Horemakhet son of Šōbaka (was HPA briefly under Tanutamon)
Nitocris daughter of Psamtik I (installed by her father in 654 [not 656])

Kim wrote: The main absurdity of Tory's proposal, for me, is the succession from Osorkon (the elder) to his father in law Psusennes, to Sheshonq II (son of the first and grandson of the second, but adult at the death of his father). I cannot think of an exact parallel.

In my view, Sheshonq II became HPA when HPA Psusennes III son of HPA Pinudjem III (see above) became Pharaoh Hedjheqare Psusennes III in 910 (910-897). They were not related. Tyetkheperre Har-Psusennes II is the Psinaches for 9 years in my chronology (919-910) and probably a sibling of Osorkon the Elder. I don’t know of any text that makes the Osorkon who married his daughter an earlier rather than later king. In fact, all mentions of Maatkare listed by Jansen-Winkeln 1995 date from the HPA-ship of her son Sheshonq II.

So Maatkare B does not need to be a king’s daughter when she married Osorkon and the latter was probably, as I said, a brother of Psusennes II (i.e. not a member of the displaced previous dynasty ending with sonless Amenemope). Maatkare B’s Theban property rights were confirmed during her father’s reign by an oracular decree probably conducted by HPA Psusennes III. She’s not called a king’s wife in this decree, or anywhere else, and it is clear she already has at least one son when this decree is made. I see that her union with Osorkon the Elder was before he became king in 945 and its possible she wasn’t his wife anymore when he became king, else why is she never called a “king’s wife” in texts that clearly postdate Osorkon? Nor is Maatkare B definitely still living when her son Sheshonq II became HPA. If that’s an absurdity for a brother of Osorkon the Elder to succeed Siamun (son of Osorkon?), and for Osorkon the Elder to have married his niece Maatkare B many years earlier, so be it.

continued ...

  • Re: Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Fri Feb 3 11:39
    Hi Jaime "the fact that Osorkon II had a grandson named Takelot (B) might suggest the namesake king was alive to see the birth of the third generation after his." I agree, in fact have been arguing... more
    • Re: Libyans and Kushites — Tory, Tue Feb 7 03:09
      • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 7 03:11
        Kim wrote: On the Apis of 26 Taharqa: Numerically, you can make this work (although in accepting the EKL reign length of 49, you reject the detail of his immediate predecessors, a queen for 10 years... more
        • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 7 03:12
          Kim wrote: Ok. Does this now mean that you have an “undated” Apis bull between 2 Shabaka and 14 Taharqa, which are separated by 32-33 years? Is the “year 4” docket doing its duty in everyone's theory ... more
          • Re: Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Mon Feb 20 14:31
            Hi Tory I have now had a chance to go through your massive and detailed presentation. First, the minor corrections that I have picked up on, that you might want to incorporate in case they lead to... more
            • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 21 09:21
              Hi Kim, On the members of Dynasty 21: I am certain your Painedjem II is a phantom created by a miswriting of a single bandage. If it is not, then he must be moved earlier in date, as his father is... more
            • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 21 03:24
              Hi Kim Thank you for your reply and these minor corrections to my Saite chronology. I was in bit of a rush. As I said, my wife uses a stop watch every time I sit down at the computer to do historical ... more
              • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 21 10:50
                Ooops Year 20 Apries, II-smw 10 (P. BM 10113, Thebes) (Oct 12, 567), this is the highest known date for Apries. Nebuchadnezzar II stormed Thebes and sacked it (Nov, 567) shortly after previous date.... more
                • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Wed Feb 22 17:19
                  Hi Tory "these minor corrections to my Saite chronology." The finding of the mistakes is in no way an attempt to invalidate or criticise, quite the reverse. I know from experience the embarassment of ... more
                  • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Wed Feb 22 23:15
                    Hi Kim My wife is one of those who would prefer I go to the casino since there is chance I would actually leave with more money than I came. Lapdancers? Same thing. Hardware store? Another word for... more
                    • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Fri Feb 24 17:46
                      Hi Tory Re: Saite chronology. Sorry, it was me missing something. Although you changed the detailed dates you kept the summary statement of reign period (e.g. "Apries (587-568) accession I-3kt 24... more
                  • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Kim Sargerson, Wed Feb 22 17:24
                    ...continued "Tashepenbast was the daughter of Hedjkheperre Shoshenq I. Her son the vizier Nesipakashuti A, son of 3PA Djedthutefankh, died under Usermaatre Shoshenq. My Shoshenq II is king at... more
                    • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Tory, Thu Feb 23 00:05
                      Hi Kim if Nimlot C is not an ancestor of Pasenhor B, remind me what he (and his wife) is doing in this list of ancestors... Because Wedjptahankhef’s wife Tentsepeh was the royal daughter of Osorkon... more
          • Re: Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Mon Feb 13 11:39
            Hi Tory Ian Mladjov (once a regular contributor to this forum) has an article in Birmingham Egyptlogy journal, which can be downloaded free here... more
            • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Wed Feb 15 20:48
              Hi Kim I will have to look at Ian's paper, but since it appears to be a criticism of Thijs' work I don't know how much it will shed any new light on what we already know. "It was not a calendar in... more
          • Addendum: a mangled Saite DistanzangabeTory, Tue Feb 7 08:57
            The stela Tawfik discovered and published by Handoussa states that the priest Psamtek was born in Year 1 of Nekau II, III-smw 1, and that he died in Year 27, IV-3kt 28. His lifespan is given as 65... more
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