Tory
Re: Libyans and Kushites
Tue Feb 7, 2017 03:11
112.198.101.118

Kim wrote: On the Apis of 26 Taharqa: Numerically, you can make this work (although in accepting the EKL reign length of 49, you reject the detail of his immediate predecessors, a queen for 10 years preceded by Shabaka for 12 years).

But I do not reject the detail of this queen. I embrace it. It is the earlier, fantastic portions of the EKL I reject, but not the portion with the Menelik dynasty from Queen Makeda down to Tanutamon. The list starts to reflect real history with Queen Makeda and historically Ethiopian tradition ancient and modern does not show any interest in the history that preceded her. Their political history really begins with her. She is most likely the same woman as Queen Katimala/Katimara since their names have the same definition and “Makeda” is just the signs of her name read in a different order and vocalized by Ethiopians. She has Egyptian royal titles on her Semna inscription dated to her own Year 14, so I think she may have been the king’s daughter of ? and the widow of Amenemeope. When Sheshonq I succeeded Amenemope she established her throne at Saba in Kush. She would be the reason Neskhons did not have a male nor female Viceroy of Kush succeed her. In my reconstruction Neskhons is buried in year 5 of Sheshonq I (990) not Siamun, and her husband HPA Pinudjem IV son of Menkheperre is buried in year 10 (985) and Iuput becomes HPA.

Makeda/Katimala (996-965) 31
Menelik (965-940) 25
Hanyon (940-939) 1
Zera (939-913) 26 [he wasn’t king yet when he attacked Asa]
Amonhotep Zagdur (913-882) 31
Aksumay Ramissu (882-862) 20
Awseyo Sera (862-824) 38
Tawasya (824-803) 21
Abralyus Wiyankihi/Piankhy (803-771) 32
Aksumay Warada Tsahay/Alara (771-748) 23
Hanyon Kashta/Nimare Kashta (748-735) 13
Šōbaka (735-723) 12
Nicauta Kandake/Kannsa (723-713) 10
Tsawi Terhak Warada Nagash/Taharqa (713-664) 49
Rudamon II (664-658) 6
Gasiyo Eskikatir (658)
Tanutamon (658-654) 4

According to the EKL, Šōbaka (735-716) was king of Kush for 12 years (735-723). His Egyptian years after this are ignored. I assume he gave Kush to his daughter Kannsa in 723 who reigned 10 years. She had all the trappings of kingship in Kush, including feather plumed double-cartouche names plus elaborate epithets (cf. JEA 35 [1949]: Pl. XV, no. 37; 144). Her father died in Egypt in 716 and was buried in Kush. Her brother Šōbatka (716-713) began his reign at Thebes (= Meluhha). Taharqa was among those summoned north to Thebes in 716 for the accession of Šōbatka. In 713, Šōbatka appointed his younger brother “king of Kush” after Kannsa’s death, but Šōbatka himself died later, perhaps in 710, after he sent Yamani to Assyria (711?). Taharqa was now king of both Kush and Egypt. The EKL omits Šōbatka, in my opinion, because he did not put on the crown of Kush after Kannsa’s death but gave it to Taharqa instead.

Kim wrote: So Taharqa has a reign of about 24 years as king of all Egypt, followed by a reign of 25 years as king of upper Egypt.

I do not have Taharqa vacate Lower Egypt until 671 when Esarhaddon records Taharqa vacated Lower Egypt (10th campaign). I’m saying the 26th dynasty began as a dependency of Taharqa late in his reign in 684 (year 30), and that Esarhaddon took it away from him when he installed Nekau I at Sais and Memphis in 671 (year 43).

We have also to keep in mind something W. Shea pointed out, and that is that Sennacherib records 8 campaigns down to 689 and this is unlikely to have been the last of his expeditions. A campaign by his generals against one or more of Taharqa’s Syrian vassals in 688 could explain why Psamtik I’s historians, Assyrians, thought Taharqa’s reign length should not extend beyond year 26 (688). It was probably the same year Manassah was captured by the Assyrian army and put in prison in Babylon. In this scenario Sennacherib managed to cut off Egyptian trade and influence in Syria in 688 and then Taharqa lamented this action in a lengthy Karnak inscription.

The above could explain the scribe of Louvre 192 in year 21 of Psamtik I who did not know what the hell he was doing because: a) he did not have the detailed Serapeum records from before Psamtik I; and b) he was dealing with a historiography bent by Assyrians. All he really thinks he knows is that the Apis induction on IV-prt 9 (= Sep 4, 664) and its death on IV-smw 20 (= Jan 8, 642) are 21 years apart, which is abnormal, not a lifespan, and unprecedented in these stelae. It’s also wrong. If he was truly a keeper of Memphite Serapeum records he would at least say 21 years, 4 months, 11 days. His imprecision is corrected by him, or someone else, to 20 years, 1 month, and 4 days. This too is wrong. Because 7334 days back from IV-smw 20 makes the bull’s birth fall on III-smw 16 (Dec 10, 663). The calculation puts date of birth 462 (1y, 3ms, 7dys) days AFTER induction on IV-prt 9! This scribe was not Egyptian and did not fully understand how the Egyptian civil calendar works. I can think of no better case where a contemporary record should be heavily emended or removed from the table of discussion.

To avoid confusion I will list here my Gregorian dates for Psamtik I and his successors. Note that I reject Gardiner’s old idea of Roman style dating during the Saite and Middle Kingdom periods. I also accept L. Borchardt’s thesis that coronation days in Egypt took place on the first full moon after a king’s date of accession:

Taharqa (713-664)
Apis induction, IV-prt 9, year 26 49 (Sep 4, 664)
Death of Taharqa

Rudamon II (664-658)
Year 1: additions to Osiris-Heqadjet temple in Thebes (664)
Year 2: 2nd campaign of Assurbanipal, Thebes sacked (663)

Tanutamon (658-654)
Year 1: Upper and Lower Egypt re-captured (658)
Year 6: Tanutamon returned to Kush (Jan, 654)

Psamtik I (662-609) coronation I-3kt 22, year 1 (Feb 19, 662)
Year 9, I-3kt 28, Nitocris departed south for Thebes (Feb 23, 654)
Year 20, I-3kt 22 (Feb 14, 643)
Apis death, IV-smw 20, year 20 (Jan 8, 642)
Year 21, I-3kt 22 (Feb 14, 642)
Apis burial, II-3kt 25, year 21 (Mar 19, 642)
Year 53, I-3kt 22 (Feb 6, 610)
Apis birth, II-prt 19, year 53 (Jul 3, 610)
Year 54, I-3kt 22 (Feb 6, 609)
Apis induction, III-3kt 12, year 54 (Mar 27, 609)
Death of Psamtik I abroad during a total lunar eclipse, IV-prt 15, year 54 (P. Berlin 13588 iii.1–3)(Aug 27, 609)

Nekau II (609-594) accession IV-prt 16 (Aug 28, 609)
Nekau II coronation I-smw 15, year 1 (Sep 26, 609)
Birth of priest Psamtek, III-smw 1, year 1 (Nov 11, 609)
Year 2, I-smw 15 (Sep 26, 608)
Year 16, I-smw 15 (Sep 24, 594)
Apis death, II-3kt 6, year 16 (Feb 17, 594)
Apis birth, II-3kt 7, year 16 (Feb 18, 594)
Death of Nekau II, year 16, 594

Psamtik II (594-588) accession/coronation 594
Apis induction, III-smw 9, year 1 (Nov 17, 594)
Death of Psamtik II, I-3kt 23, year 7 (Feb 2, 588)
*I do not understand the claim in recent literature that he died in his 6th year!

Apries (588-568) accession I-3kt 24 (Feb 3, 588)
Apries coronation II-3kt 2, year 1 (Feb 11, 588)
Year 2, II-3kt 2 (Feb 11, 587)
Year 12, II-3kt 2 (Feb 9, 577)
Apis death, IV-prt 12, year 12 (Apr 17, 577)
Apris birth, year 12
Year 20, II-3kt 2 (Feb 7, 569)
Year 20, II-smw 10 (P. BM 10113) (Oct 12, 569) Thebes

Nebuchadnezzar II attacked Apries in 568 (BM 33041)
Amasis revolted against Apries and supported Nebuchadnezzar II by raising troops from Cyrene (Putuiaman) and far-off areas in the midst of the sea.
Apries fled as Nebuchadnezzar II rampaged the entire length of Egypt to the border of Kush.
Nebuchadnezzar II crowned Amasis (568-525) on I-smw 23 (Sep 25, 568) and returned to Babylonia.
Amasis restored Egypt but the region of Pathros between the tower of Elephantine (Syene) and the border of Kush remained desolate and uninhabited for the next 40 years (Ezek 29:10-11, 14-16).

Year 1, II-smw, Apries 1st attempt to recover Egypt (Oct, 568)
Year 1, IV-smw 1 (Lourve C. 298, Pharbaithos) (Dec 2, 568)
Year 1, II-3kt 1 (BM 952, Sharuna)(Feb 5, 567)
Year 1, III-prt (Berlin 14998, west Delta)
Year 2, I-smw 23 (Sep 25, 567)
Year 4, I-smw 23 (Sep 24, 565)
*Year 25, Apries, II-3kt 2 (Feb 5, 564) Herodotus 25 years
Year 4, III-3kt 8, Apries 2nd attempt to recover Egypt, death of Apries (Mar 13, 564)
Year 5, I-smw 23 (Sep 24, 564)
Apis birth, year 5, I-3kt 7 (Jan 11, 563)
Year 12, I-smw 23 (Sep 22, 557)
Year 12, II-smw 13 (Oct 12, 557) Petosiris agreed to swear an oath on day of the full moon
Year 12, I-smw smdt (Oct 21, 557) Petosiris swore the oath on the day of the full moon
Year 12, I-smw 21 (Sep 20, 556) the date P. Louvre 7848 was composed
Year 13, I-smw 23 (Sep 22, 556)
Year 23, I-smw 23 (Sep 20, 546)
Apis death, III-prt 6, year 23 (Jul 4, 545)
Apis birth, year 23
Year 25, I-smw 23 (Sep 19, 544)
Death of the priest Psamtek, III-prt 28, year 25 (Aug 25, 543)
He was 65 years, 10 months, and 2 days old when he died (24,027 days)
Year 27, I-smw 23 (Sep 19, 542)
Apis death, year 27
Apis birth, year 27
Year 44, I-smw 23 (Sep 14, 525)
Death of Amasis, year 44, Oct 525

Psamtik III, six months (525 Oct-Apr 524)

Cambyses conquest, year 1, Apr 524 (= Olympiad 63.4 525/524). Diodorus is off by an astounding 11 years when he gives Amasis a reign of 55 years ending in Olympiad 63.3. So he is probably off by one year for the Olympiad date for the conquest by Cambyses given that he omits the reign of Psamtik III.

The reason Greek sources are ignorant of Nebuchadnezzar II’s massive invasion of Egypt in 568 is because of the success of Amasis’ propaganda after his master Nebuchadnezzar II’s death in 561. Amasis wanted his two battles with Apries after Nebuchadnezzar II left Egypt to be decisive, not the fact that Nebuchadnezzar II made him a vassal king of conquered Babylonian territory.

P.S. my view regarding the grammar of P. Louvre 7848 is thoroughly correct. Krauss (2012) had a word with Donker van Heel and the latter confirmed what I have been saying, which is that II-smw 13 in year 12 is not anticipatory (emphatic future), as was wrongly assumed by Parker. The document simply recalls actions taken by parties earlier in Year 12. Astronomer J. A. Belmonte rejects the Parker-Depuydt-Krauss civil-based lunar calendar interpretation usually imposed on this document. This rejection is warranted because the Egyptians this early would not have been able to predict in advance if a full moon would fall on a particular civil date and no one disputes this anymore. See Belmonte’s paper "Some Open Questions on the Egyptian Calendar: An Astronomer’s View," Trabajos de Egiptología 2 (2003): 7-56.

Since II-smw 13 is really just the civil date the mummy-guard Petosiris agreed he would swear an oath on a full moon before the god Khonsu, the actual swearing of the oath is what is anticipatory and the day of the oath ceremony would depend upon an empirical observation of the moon to determine if the moon is full or not. This is further evidenced by the fact that there is the preposition "n" between the two dates, II-smw 13 n smdt(*) I-smw, marking the dative and having the usual meaning "to, for, of." The phrase is clearly not the same form as the two Edfu double dates and hence the default assumption should not be that the promise to swear an oath and then the swearing of the oath refer to the same day. Lastly, I-smw smdt is not only LD 15. It can also be LD 14, or even LD 16, depending on where LD 1 falls relative to astronomical full moon. So I cast away Parker’s fixed date of Julian Oct 19, 559 (which is not full moon) since it is based on invalid and obsolete arguments.

continued ...

  • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 7 03:09
    Hi Kim, Jaime: Sorry for the delay. When the wife loses her patience with ancient chronology I cannot go near a history book or even a computer keyboard for several days. Here are my Egyptian dates... more
    • Re: Libyans and Kushites — Tory, Tue Feb 7 03:11
      • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 7 03:12
        Kim wrote: Ok. Does this now mean that you have an “undated” Apis bull between 2 Shabaka and 14 Taharqa, which are separated by 32-33 years? Is the “year 4” docket doing its duty in everyone's theory ... more
        • Re: Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Mon Feb 20 14:31
          Hi Tory I have now had a chance to go through your massive and detailed presentation. First, the minor corrections that I have picked up on, that you might want to incorporate in case they lead to... more
          • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 21 09:21
            Hi Kim, On the members of Dynasty 21: I am certain your Painedjem II is a phantom created by a miswriting of a single bandage. If it is not, then he must be moved earlier in date, as his father is... more
          • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 21 03:24
            Hi Kim Thank you for your reply and these minor corrections to my Saite chronology. I was in bit of a rush. As I said, my wife uses a stop watch every time I sit down at the computer to do historical ... more
            • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 21 10:50
              Ooops Year 20 Apries, II-smw 10 (P. BM 10113, Thebes) (Oct 12, 567), this is the highest known date for Apries. Nebuchadnezzar II stormed Thebes and sacked it (Nov, 567) shortly after previous date.... more
              • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Wed Feb 22 17:19
                Hi Tory "these minor corrections to my Saite chronology." The finding of the mistakes is in no way an attempt to invalidate or criticise, quite the reverse. I know from experience the embarassment of ... more
                • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Wed Feb 22 23:15
                  Hi Kim My wife is one of those who would prefer I go to the casino since there is chance I would actually leave with more money than I came. Lapdancers? Same thing. Hardware store? Another word for... more
                  • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Fri Feb 24 17:46
                    Hi Tory Re: Saite chronology. Sorry, it was me missing something. Although you changed the detailed dates you kept the summary statement of reign period (e.g. "Apries (587-568) accession I-3kt 24... more
                    • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Sun Feb 26 02:22
                      Hi Kim He apparently has quit Egyptology so I have not bothered to contact him, but what Koenraad Donker van Heel said in his book and what he reiterated to Krauss is that the P. Louvre 7848 was... more
                    • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Kim Sargerson, Fri Feb 24 18:05
                      continued... "Takeloth E/F only finds a supporter in Pedubast II AFTER the death of Shoshenq III. Where he was during years 22-29 need no more be an exile than where Osorkon B was during years 6-21... more
                • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Kim Sargerson, Wed Feb 22 17:24
                  ...continued "Tashepenbast was the daughter of Hedjkheperre Shoshenq I. Her son the vizier Nesipakashuti A, son of 3PA Djedthutefankh, died under Usermaatre Shoshenq. My Shoshenq II is king at... more
                  • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Tory, Thu Feb 23 00:05
                    Hi Kim if Nimlot C is not an ancestor of Pasenhor B, remind me what he (and his wife) is doing in this list of ancestors... Because Wedjptahankhef’s wife Tentsepeh was the royal daughter of Osorkon... more
        • Re: Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Mon Feb 13 11:39
          Hi Tory Ian Mladjov (once a regular contributor to this forum) has an article in Birmingham Egyptlogy journal, which can be downloaded free here... more
          • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Wed Feb 15 20:48
            Hi Kim I will have to look at Ian's paper, but since it appears to be a criticism of Thijs' work I don't know how much it will shed any new light on what we already know. "It was not a calendar in... more
        • Addendum: a mangled Saite DistanzangabeTory, Tue Feb 7 08:57
          The stela Tawfik discovered and published by Handoussa states that the priest Psamtek was born in Year 1 of Nekau II, III-smw 1, and that he died in Year 27, IV-3kt 28. His lifespan is given as 65... more
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