Re: Where is Jerusalem?
Tue Feb 14, 2017 17:36

Hi Tory

Lol, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean. Are you saying 3 cities called Jerusalem: Arad, Gerizim-Shechem and Jerusalem during the first temple period?

"Even Josephus' location of Jerusalem has been dismissed. He says Jerusalem is near Masada. Modern Jerusalem is nowhere near Masada but 200 km away!"

What passage of Josephus are you referring to? Jerusalem should be in northern Judah contiguous with the tribal allotment of Benjamin (Jos 18:28). It was known as Jebus (Jud 1:21), David captured it (1Chron 11:4-5) and later kings built monuments at that location. So there was no southern Jebus-Jerusalem in the Hebrew Bible at Arad (unless Jos 15:8). When you say Josephus said the temple was destroyed does he mean the entire temple mount?

"Eusebius is proof this is what happened. He writes that he saw with his own eyes how the Romans plowed "Mount Zion" into a farmland and refuse dump. He says this was the cite of the Jewish temple and God's punishment was fulfilled. Mount Zion for Eusebius is the southwestern hill in modern Jerusalem, and for centuries this is where Christianity located the Jewish temple until modern scholarship said Mount Zion is really the southeastern ridge and the temple was not built on Mount Zion like Josephus says but north of it."

I thought the temple was supposedly built on Mt. Moriah outside the city of David which is Zion (2Chron 3:1, 2 Chron 5:2). So Josephus, Eusebius and Christian tradition are wrong.

"Without realizing it, Eusebius confirms that the temple mount, or Haram es-Sharif as it is called in Arabic, was not completely destroyed but that the Romans built Aelia on top of its ruins and these Herodian ruins can still be seen to this day. I.e. Eusebius has the wrong Jerusalem and Aelia is not the place Titus leveled to the ground in 70 A.D."

Are you identifying Aelia Capitolina with Haram es-Sharif or Mount Epharim? Because you said earlier:

"I'm saying the place Hadrian built and called it Aelia is not the city Titus destroyed in 70 A.D. Hadrian built Aelia on the site of the Samaritan Jerusalem in mount Ephraim."

Regarding Gibeon you say:

Gibeon is 40 stadia from Jerusalem
Bethlehem is 20 stadia from Jerusalem
Gibeon sits in the valley that extends to Bethlehem
Jerusalem is next to Masada
All four of these claims are made by Josephus. Look on any modern map and Josephus is either stupid and all four claims are wrong, or Aelia is not the Jerusalem he was born and raised in and the places now called Jerusalem, Gibeon, and Bethlehem are misidentified because of Roman and Christian renaming."

I wonder why youre thinking on Josephus' accuracy changed because in the past you thought he was spot on.

"Josephus correctly states that Jerusalem is a hundred and fifty stadia (about 30 km) from Jericho, and that Jericho is sixty stadia from Jordan (about 12 km). Hes right that the distance from Jerusalem and Gibeon is fifty stadia (10 km). Hes right that from Jerusalem to Herodium is sixty stadia (about 12 km). Hes right that from Mount Scopus to Jerusalem is seven stadia (about 1,300 meters). Hes right that from the Mount of Olives to Jerusalem is six stadia (1,116 meters). And hes also right that Gibeah of Saul is thirty stadia from Jerusalem (56 km). All of these measurements with stade are correct."

Anyway, (even if Gibeon is not el-Jib) it was probably located in the immediate region north of Jerusalem. The northern boundary of Benjamin did not extend too far beyond Bethel (Beitin). On Bethlehem Jos 18 and Gen 35 can't both right? Different competing traditions existed on the location for Bethlehem one north or south of Jerusalem.


  • Where is Jerusalem?Tory, Tue Feb 7 12:07
    Here are just some of the problems. 1. Unlike Josephus, the Romans did not make any distinction whatsoever between Samaritans and Jews. Both were "Iudeans" as far as Romans were concerned. 2. When... more
    • Re: Where is Jerusalem? — Delvon, Tue Feb 14 17:36
      • Re: Where is Jerusalem?Tory, Wed Feb 15 05:03
        Hi Delvon Yes in the past I would have attacked anyone who challenged Jerusalem's location, even Josephus. But living here in Israel, as I have now for many years, is a lot different than reading... more
    • 3147′N 3513′E now and thenJoe Baker, Wed Feb 8 20:56
      • Aelia 3147′N 3513′E now and thenTory, Thu Feb 9 14:10
        Josephus: Gibeon is 40 stadia from Jerusalem Bethlehem is 20 stadia from Jerusalem Gibeon sits in the valley that extends to Bethlehem Jerusalem is next to Masada All four of these claims are made by ... more
        • Josephus on Gibeah: Versions of a Toponym Rich McQuillen, Thu Feb 9 20:10
          An interesting topic, I wish I could read the rest of the article. Josephus on Gibeah: Versions of a Toponym
          • Rich The author does not talk about our issue. He is concerned with Gibeah not Gibeon. And he thinks Josephus is confused about the former's identity and location. No mention is made of the fact that ... more
            • GibeonTory, Thu Feb 9 23:52
              The jar-handles found at Al Jib in the 1950s have GB'N stamped on them. This is supposedly proof that Al Jib is the site of biblical Gibeon. Yet no one has asked the elementary questions: did the... more
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