Marianne Luban
re:Ramesses XII?
Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:29
75.162.223.19

Tory wrote:

"I will read your paper. But it seems Ian is talking about a completely new king, whereas you are suggesting a simple renumbering of RXI to XII. That leaves us back at square one in terms of 20-21st dynasty chronology."

Well...it would be a new king [of Dynasty 19] because Sekhaenre Ramesses-siptah is, for now, regarded as the same pharaoh as Akhenre Siptah-merneptah. The former has no attestations beyond Year 1...and the latter has none until Year 3. There are some factors arguing for this being the same pharaoh, but it is unprecedented for one to change both the nomen and prenomen. And why? Added to which--was this "Siptah" even in charge of his own destiny, as he was thought to have had a regent, Queen Tawosret. As recently as 2010, Aidan Dodson did allow that this *might* be a case of two different kings in his book, "Poisoned Legacy: the Fall of the Nineteenth Egyptian Dynasty".

Tory:
"Can we be sure the tale of the polluted ones is not alluding to events in the 8th century BCE, but using famous names from the past?"

It definitely refers to some incidents from the distant past. But, once again, even if there is another [separate] pharaoh named Ramesses, his reign would be very brief and would not make much change to the ancient Egyptian timeline at all. The main reason I gave some ideas about the end of Dynasty 19 in my latest upload at Academia.edu was to stress the importance of comparing the DNA of the royal mummies assigned to this period. If we could at least try to puzzle out their relationships to one another scientifically, we could perhaps then take a fresh look at the archaeological evidence.

https://independent.academia.edu/MarianneLuban

  • re:Ramesses XII?Tory, Tue Feb 21 03:34
    Hi Marianne, I will read your paper. But it seems Ian is talking about a completely new king, whereas you are suggesting a simple renumbering of RXI to XII. That leaves us back at square one in terms ... more
    • re:Ramesses XII? — Marianne Luban, Wed Feb 22 10:29
      • Ramesses XIIFB, Sun Feb 26 13:32
        Ian is talking about an entirely new Ramesside king from the 20th Dynasty named Usermaatre Heqawaset/Heqawese Ramesses Mereramun. He makes it clear that this king is not Siptah or Ramesses II since... more
        • re: Ramesses XIIMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 26 18:33
          FB [whoever?] wrote: "Ian is talking about an entirely new Ramesside king from the 20th Dynasty named Usermaatre Heqawaset/Heqawese Ramesses Mereramun." Ian who? The first post in this thread was... more
        • Re: Ramesses XIIFB, Sun Feb 26 17:36
          PS: The epithet Mereramun was never used by Ramesses II or Ramesses III in their formal inscriptions. They used Meryamun. Therefore, they are eliminated as the Wadi Hammamat king. The identification... more
          • Re: Ramesses XIITory, Sun Feb 26 18:28
            Smendes who had a 26 year reign in Dynasty 21 is attested only twice in Upper Egypt at Ed-Dibabiya What is the proof Smendes reigned so long? I'm not against new rabbits in theory, but if correcting... more
            • Re: Ramesses XIIFB, Sun Feb 26 19:30
              To Ms Luban, The Ian mentioned here is Ian Mladjov. He published his 2017 paper here: http://birminghamegyptology.co.uk/journal/ and you would know this if you are on EEF. Manetho gives Smendes 26... more
              • Re: Ramesses XIIMarianne Luban, Mon Feb 27 09:05
                FB wrote: "To Ms Luban, The Ian mentioned here is Ian Mladjov. He published his 2017 paper here: http://birminghamegyptology.co.uk/journal/ and you would know this if you are on EEF." Is it somehow... more
              • egyptological nonsenseTory, Mon Feb 27 00:16
                Manetho gives Smendes 26 years of reign and this is supported by the Year 25 date on the Banishment Stela since we have no evidence the Theban High Priests counted their years even when they... more
              • Re: Ramesses XIITory, Sun Feb 26 21:08
                There is no year 16 document where Pinudjem I "proclaims himself king." This is incorrect and misleading. There is a year 16 (anonymous) record when Masaharta was HPA. It says nothing about his royal ... more
                • Dear Tory, I'm afraid that this will be my last post on this Forum. This Forum is not what it was when I participated on it 11-14 years ago. Yes there is clear evidence that Pinedjem was a simple HP... more
                  • I'm afraid that this will be my last post on this Forum. This Forum is not what it was when I participated on it 11-14 years ago. Yes there is clear evidence that Pinedjem was a simple HP in Year 15... more
              • Re: Ramesses XIIFB, Sun Feb 26 19:48
                As an aside, if 'king' Pinedjem I in Thebes really counted his years and we know he proclaimed himself king in Year 16 of an anonymous ruler's reign (likely Smendes) then why is the Banishment stela... more
                • Re: Ramesses XIITory, Sun Feb 26 21:01
                  Where does the Banishment Stele mention anyone named king Smendes? The only king named anywhere in this record is king Pinudjem, father of HPA Menkheperre. There is not the slightest recognition of... more
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