Kim Sargerson
Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2
Wed Feb 22, 2017 17:24
81.151.216.165

...continued

"Tashepenbast was the daughter of Hedjkheperre Shoshenq I. Her son the vizier Nesipakashuti A, son of 3PA Djedthutefankh, died under Usermaatre Shoshenq. My Shoshenq II is king at exactly the same time."
This is merely a general case. I make a similar connection of dots, but without the necessity to assume that Tashepenbast was definitely the daughter of a Hedjkheperre (just of a king Sheshonq) or that Nesipaqashuty was definitely her son as well as that of her husband, or that the king Usermaatre Sheshonq under whom he died also masqueraded under a host of other names.

"Heqakheperre is either Shoshenq I or his father GC Shoshenq A and the latter had a year 2 while still GC but died with full royal titles and was buried by his son Shoshenq I."
I make a similar assumption, i.e. that the GC Sheshonq attested with a regnal year 2 was indeed buried as a full king. However, my view is that the 3 kings reburied side by side in the vestibule of Psusennes I's tomb were roughly genealogical contemporaries, and that this activity represents one particular solution to the perennial problem of tomb robbery, whilst other kings, both earlier and later, found or were given different resting places.

"He's likely a son of king Harsiese and a brother of Pedubast I."
Or, as you yourself have it, the eldest son of Pedubast I and paternal grandson of the king, his namesake. Despite this promising position, he sees his two younger brothers Iuput and Sheshonq become kings in their father's lifetime, but he does not. So I call him a minor sprog.

"Harsiese B interrupts Osorkon B and Nimlot G is son of Osorkon II."
I think you are missing the point. The succession Harsiese B / Nimlot G / Takelot E happens quite quickly in your scenario (in the course of one royal year) and is a direct succession as you present it. However Harsiese's claim extends back 18 years, largely successful and uninterrupted apart from perhaps c836/835, and poor Takelot E/F runs from Sheshonq III to exile, then back under Pedubast II c791, then he is out on his ear again or dead. It is hard to see how Osorkon B could be cultivating the followers of Pedubast II after 794, as well as having a substantial military presence at Thebes, in order to succeed Pedubast when he died, but at the same time Pedubast is lending his name to Osorkon's old rival Takelot, who has no evident support elsewhere, right in the middle of this period. Yes, stranger things have happened. But it is Ockham's Razor time again I think. Not only does such a scenario make poor political sense on its own, there is not a shred of evidence in support of it. As other arrangements of the reigns and chronology are possible, which do not require Machiavellian plots and counterplots, with mysterious armies moving like ghosts up and down the Nile (I am having a go at some of the more involved schemata as well as your own here) sadly I think the most mundane explanation, although not good television, is probably the correct one in most cases. Osorkon had terrible trouble with unnamed rebels in years 11-15 of Takelot. We know this because he wrote an account of it. The anonymous rebels included native Egyptians, as Osorkon reports his reprisals against the Thebans themselves. We do not know that it included rival dynasts. All the dynasts may have been on the back foot at the same time, for all we actually know, fighting a native Egyptian uprising that wished to be rid of these foreign parasites. As a side note again, the fragmentary inscriptions from early in Piye's reign (year 4 or possibly year 3) mention the 1PA at Thebes. This is approximately 801 on your timeline. Is it Takelot, or Osorkon?

"As for Peftjauawybast...My time-line precludes this anyway or else Peftjauawybast was demoted from king to HPP."
Not according to your most recent published dates; he is 1PP by c805 (28 Sheshonq III) but has gone from this post by 779; the king makes his appearance c794 and is in post after 883. It is not a common name, and there is another possible "migration" from the northern court to Herakleopolis, as the earliest known ancestor of the shipmasters of Herakleopolis who functioned from about 685 to about 520 conventional dates (Taharqa to Darius I) is an Ankh-Sheshonq, and a descent line from a daughter of Sheshonq III is known which used this name in alternate generations.
My suggestions were merely to show that some oddities ought to have an explanation, by such a drastic rearrangement. I don't count the EKL, as its exemplar is not contemporary with the period; I am talking about actual data which does not quite fit in one scenario, but fits well in another - like the problem of the chiefs of the Libu for the conventional chronology - almost any arrangement which takes Tefnakht A away from the end of Sheshonq V helps here, and your is one of many that does this. So I was looking for oddities that would be explained by your scheme in addition to those already explained by others, and did not find any to outweigh the large number of oddities produced by it.

"Its Nimlot C not A. Nimlot C and Tentsepeh were not the parents of Wedjptahankhef. I have Wedjptahankhef’s wife Tentsepeh as the royal daughter of Osorkon II and a sister of Nimlot C."
Thank you for explaining that (again). I know it is an often returned to subject, but if Nimlot C is not an ancestor of Pasenhor B, remind me what he (and his wife) is doing in this list of ancestors...

Regards

Kim

  • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Wed Feb 22 17:19
    Hi Tory "these minor corrections to my Saite chronology." The finding of the mistakes is in no way an attempt to invalidate or criticise, quite the reverse. I know from experience the embarassment of ... more
    • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Wed Feb 22 23:15
      Hi Kim My wife is one of those who would prefer I go to the casino since there is chance I would actually leave with more money than I came. Lapdancers? Same thing. Hardware store? Another word for... more
      • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Fri Feb 24 17:46
        Hi Tory Re: Saite chronology. Sorry, it was me missing something. Although you changed the detailed dates you kept the summary statement of reign period (e.g. "Apries (587-568) accession I-3kt 24... more
        • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Sun Feb 26 02:22
          Hi Kim He apparently has quit Egyptology so I have not bothered to contact him, but what Koenraad Donker van Heel said in his book and what he reiterated to Krauss is that the P. Louvre 7848 was... more
          • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Wed Mar 1 15:15
            Hi Tory Sorry I mentioned the Ramesses article at all now. My thanks to you and Marianne for seeing off Fabian Boudville in style. I do however recommend Ian's article on the subject, if you have not ... more
            • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Wed Mar 1 23:21
              Hi Kim So you and Marianne have had issues with this Fabian Boudville cat on EEF? I get the digest but I don't have time to read every mail inside. Why commence the writing of a document then set it... more
              • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Sat Mar 4 10:11
                Hi Tory "So you and Marianne have had issues with this Fabian Boudville cat on EEF?" I cannot speak for Marianne's experience with the gentleman. My experience is that not only does he not listen to... more
                • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Sun Mar 5 05:22
                  Hi Kim, So FB stands for full of bullshit. Got it. Thanks. "pCarlsberg only allows you to predict a lunation 25 years in advance, not weeks in advance, and it is only good for 500 years." Simply not... more
                  • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Sun Mar 5 16:14
                    Hi Tory ""If" you start the missing entry of the first month of the cycle with psdntwy on I-3kt 1 in the first year of the cycle..." The cycle covers 25 years. The lunation in II Akhet is on a... more
                    • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Sun Mar 5 21:20
                      Hi Kim The cycle covers 25 years. The lunation in II Akhet is on a different day in each of these years. So the "if" is not really applicable, unless you are in year 1 of the cycle. All the other... more
        • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Kim Sargerson, Fri Feb 24 18:05
          continued... "Takeloth E/F only finds a supporter in Pedubast II AFTER the death of Shoshenq III. Where he was during years 22-29 need no more be an exile than where Osorkon B was during years 6-21... more
          • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Tory, Sun Feb 26 04:21
            continued ... The gaps are not real. Osorkon B mentions an opponent who tried to claim 1PA only once, at the very beginning of his account. He never mentions such an opponent again. Yes but that does ... more
            • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Kim Sargerson, Wed Mar 1 15:17
              Hi Tory continued from part 1... "Nor do these genealogies mention Shilkanni, but he is in the generation I place him." Nor do they mention king Ping of Zhou. Your king Takelot II has an abundance of ... more
              • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Tory, Thu Mar 2 01:45
                Hi Kim continued from previous The absence of descendants of a king who never ruled or lived in Thebes is no surprise. Or is Tukulti-Mer, king of Asshur, to be identified as Takelot-Mer(yamun)? So... more
                • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Kim Sargerson, Sat Mar 4 10:23
                  Continuation: "So the absence in Thebes of descendants of Takeloth III is a surprise? Osorkon III is only a king because of an assumption that he is Osorkon B." I cannot make any sense of either... more
    • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2 — Kim Sargerson, Wed Feb 22 17:24
      • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Tory, Thu Feb 23 00:05
        Hi Kim if Nimlot C is not an ancestor of Pasenhor B, remind me what he (and his wife) is doing in this list of ancestors... Because Wedjptahankhef’s wife Tentsepeh was the royal daughter of Osorkon... more
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