Jaime O
Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?
Sun Mar 5, 2017 09:45
95.95.208.52

Hi Tory and all

I was in the thread about the Libyan Period, but time and study got in between while Tory and Kim took over it. I have been following the conversation but I fear I won't be able to catch up or add any substantial comments.

Tory: "Ramesses XII? No. This is getting way out of hand. Trusting Manetho's 26 years for Smendes I is the source of the problem with sorting out the transition from Dynasty 20 to 21. The late Terry Skinner was right."

Ramses XII seems like a stretch to me too, but Ian seems to have some interesting premises. A modest question: do we actually know the precise position of Ramses VIII? Can we actually be sure he didn't use Usermaatre Heqawaset at some point very early in his reign, before adopting Usermaatre Akhenamun, which AFAIK is not used by any other king.

I used to think there was a successor of Ramses XI who came between the latter and Smendes and Herihor, allowing Wenamon's Report from Year 5 and the linen of the reburial of Sety I by Herihor from Year 6 to actually belong to an anonymous king, other than the two other main characters in Wenamun. However, after rereading the Report, it is clear that Wenamun thought Smendes as immediately inferior to Amun and superior to Herihor: who else fits better the role of inferior to Amun than a king himself? I still defend the author of the Report didn't name anyone as king because the whole point of the narrative was to prove that Amun is king of the all universe. If so, then I agree with you that Smendes likely reign for at least 5 years after Ramses XI, during which Herihor continued to be HPA. This actually allows for Smendes to have power in Thebes, like he said he had; contra FB, however, more than 6 years can't be allowed because Herihor was HPA in someone's Year 6, which clearly isn't Ramses XI, and Pinudjem I was HPA from at least someone's Year 6 to Year 15. Year 16 doesn't need to come immediately Year 15. Year 6 of Menkheperre, however, is problematic. I prefer to assign this one to an earlier Menkheperre who intervened between Amenhotep and Piankh during the Whm Mswt, like late Terry had it.

Nevertheless, none of this means that there wasn't another king between Ramses XI and Smendes who reigned for an even shorter time. Ramses VIII maybe?

"Thus, I give Smendes I only 6 years and Herihor was HPA during all 6. Then Herihor became king for 15 years and Pinudjem I was HPA for all 15. Then Pinudjem I became king in the south and Amenemnisu became king at Tanis for 40 and 4 years, respectively."

What about Year 48 attested by Menkheperre at Karnak? This year isn't given as *of* Menkheperre, and he is still mentioned as 'son of King Pinudjem'. Pinudjem I is the only king mentioned. Shouldn't this be Pinudjem I's too, per your reasoning?

"Amenemnisu was succeeded by Psusennes I whose mother had earlier become the wife of HPA Pinudjem I and she was his wife when he became King Pinudjem I."

I used to be a bit reticent of Smendes I marrying his own step-daughter, but it might be the best possibility. However, Henuttawy could have been his own daughter, thus allowing Tentamun to have been married at least only once, to Smendes, given that we don't really have any lead on who Ramses XI was or where he came from (maybe late Terry was onto something when he made the suggestion of equating this king, whose birth-name was Khaemwaset, with the vizier). In the chalice found at Psusennes's tomb, Henuttawy appears as King's Wife and wife of the high-priest, but Pinudjem I is not king, so she must have married a king at some point before she married Pinudjem I. Smendes I seems to be the best candidate if he only reigned for 6 years and wasn't succeeded directly by Amunemnisu. I'd compose a scenario where Amunemnisu and Psusennes I were brothers (likely twins), children of Smendes and Henuttawy; Maatkare A is probably daughter of this couple too, as she appears as a child in Thebes alongside Henuttawy, Nodjmet and Pinudjem I, whom, again, is not king. Kim has pointed this out some time ago, but by making Maatkare, Henuttawy and Nodjmet daughters of Smendes I, the God's Wife of Amun borne by Henuttawy remains unknown; if Maatkare A is daughter of Henuttawy and Smendes, there is no gap in the female priesthood of Amun.

Kind regards, Jaime

  • Ramesses XII?Tory, Wed Feb 15 22:51
    Ramesses XII? No. This is getting way out of hand. Trusting Manetho's 26 years for Smendes I is the source of the problem with sorting out the transition from Dynasty 20 to 21. The late Terry Skinner ... more
    • Ramses XII = Ramses VIII? — Jaime O, Sun Mar 5 09:45
      • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Tory, Sun Mar 5 22:26
        Hi Jaime What about Year 48 attested by Menkheperre at Karnak? This year isn't given as *of* Menkheperre, and he is still mentioned as 'son of King Pinudjem'. Pinudjem I is the only king mentioned.... more
      • re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Kim Sargerson, Sun Mar 5 18:42
        Hi Jaime Welcome back. You wrote "Ramses XII seems like a stretch to me too, but Ian seems to have some interesting premises." I agree. His article is well presented and well argued, and holds... more
      • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Fabian B, Sun Mar 5 14:38
        Ramesses VIII cannot be the postulated Ramesses XII because he used the popular Amun based epithet meryamun in his royal titulary as one of the pre-Ramesses IX Ramesside kings. He is attested by only ... more
        • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Jaime O, Mon Mar 6 13:44
          Hi Fabian, Kim, Tory I appreciate your kind replies. Here goes an extensive one. Fabian: I appreciate a lot your replies. You see, I like testing things and possibilities, even when they might be... more
          • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Kim Sargerson, Sat Mar 11 04:49
            Hello Jaime "I might as well just leave some comments on that thread of ours. I've had some ideas on Pasenhor's genealogy..." Please do. I look forward to it, if you have the time. "I've read this on ... more
            • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Jaime O, Sat Mar 11 14:06
              Hi Kim, Thank you for the reply. "Please do. I look forward to it, if you have the time." It won't be nothing new or inventive. As soon as I can get some more time and space, I'll type something. "I... more
              • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Kim Sargerson, Tue Mar 14 18:38
                Hi Jaime "one needs to take account some of the genealogies that compose the backbone of the dynasty" As far as I can tell, only the Deir el Medina foremen seem to span the dynasty, and the... more
                • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Jaime O, Wed Mar 22 09:33
                  Hi Kim, forgive me for the extent of the last reply. This one might not be very different, so I apologize in advance. I wrote: "And we know from the Khonsu Temple that Herihor did act almost as king... more
                  • Re: Ramses XII, and early Dyn 21Kim Sargerson, Thu Mar 23 13:26
                    Hi Jaime You wrote "Exactly, which is why I do see Smendes coming between Ramses XI and Herihor as resolution to some problems, but may only be desirable until one comes up with something new." This... more
                    • Herihor the HPA-kingTory, Mon Mar 27 23:48
                      Hi all, The oracle of Herihor (Oracular Decree of High Priest Herihor, OIP3, p. 15, Plate 132) makes it clear that he was HPA for 30 years. 10 years as HPA had already elapsed when the oracle was... more
          • Year 6 reorsificationTory, Tue Mar 7 02:34
            Hi Kim and Jaime: G3, 232, I: year 6, II Peret 7: the vizier, general and 1PA Herihor ordered the reosirification of Menmaatre Sety-mererptah G3, 263, 5, I: fine linen made by the 1PA Menkheperre in... more
            • re: Year 6 reosirificationKim Sargerson, Wed Mar 8 18:24
              Hi Tory I have no doubt that the New Kingdom royals were indeed routinely plundered by these priests. It seems to have been a kind of "last resort", so they did a group in a short time, then there... more
              • re: Year 6 reosirificationTory, Thu Mar 9 08:12
                Hi Kim The way I see it, there is no need for yet another new person to be injected into this period. No Ramesses "XII" or Menkheperre "A". If there is a HPA Menkheperre "A" who reosirified Sety I,... more
                • re: Year 6 reosirificationKim Sargerson, Wed Mar 15 17:11
                  Hi Tory Sorry has taken so long to reply. I didn't "get" this for the longest time, but: once the ATM withdrawal has been made, this particular source of revenue is gone. If Herihor cashed in Sety's... more
          • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Fabian B, Mon Mar 6 14:22
            Dear Jaime, Thanks for your intelligent response. I am starting to think that Ramesses XII did exist too. As for Ramesses VIII, I do accept that he was a son of Ramesses III since it would explain... more
        • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Fabian B, Sun Mar 5 14:47
          Correction to my post: I said "Ramesses II never used the Amun based epithet meryamun." I meant that Ramesses II never used the Amun based epithet Mereramun. Ramesses II, Ramesses III through to... more
        • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Fabian B, Sun Mar 5 14:40
          The image link was: www.ancient.co.uk/userfiles/images/REVISED%20PETRIE%202015%20SLIDE%20SHOW/37%20WADI%20HAMMAMAT.jpg You can add http:// in front
    • re:Ramesses XII?Marianne Luban, Fri Feb 17 15:31
      There might have been a Ramesses X11 if we count Ramesses-siptah as Ramesses III and the current Ramesses III as Ramesses IV and so on. Ramesses-siptah, according to the current consensus is the same ... more
      • re:Ramesses XII?Tory, Tue Feb 21 03:34
        Hi Marianne, I will read your paper. But it seems Ian is talking about a completely new king, whereas you are suggesting a simple renumbering of RXI to XII. That leaves us back at square one in terms ... more
        • re:Ramesses XII?Marianne Luban, Wed Feb 22 10:29
          Tory wrote: "I will read your paper. But it seems Ian is talking about a completely new king, whereas you are suggesting a simple renumbering of RXI to XII. That leaves us back at square one in terms ... more
          • Ramesses XIIFB, Sun Feb 26 13:32
            Ian is talking about an entirely new Ramesside king from the 20th Dynasty named Usermaatre Heqawaset/Heqawese Ramesses Mereramun. He makes it clear that this king is not Siptah or Ramesses II since... more
            • re: Ramesses XIIMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 26 18:33
              FB [whoever?] wrote: "Ian is talking about an entirely new Ramesside king from the 20th Dynasty named Usermaatre Heqawaset/Heqawese Ramesses Mereramun." Ian who? The first post in this thread was... more
            • Re: Ramesses XIIFB, Sun Feb 26 17:36
              PS: The epithet Mereramun was never used by Ramesses II or Ramesses III in their formal inscriptions. They used Meryamun. Therefore, they are eliminated as the Wadi Hammamat king. The identification... more
              • Re: Ramesses XIITory, Sun Feb 26 18:28
                Smendes who had a 26 year reign in Dynasty 21 is attested only twice in Upper Egypt at Ed-Dibabiya What is the proof Smendes reigned so long? I'm not against new rabbits in theory, but if correcting... more
                • Re: Ramesses XIIFB, Sun Feb 26 19:30
                  To Ms Luban, The Ian mentioned here is Ian Mladjov. He published his 2017 paper here: http://birminghamegyptology.co.uk/journal/ and you would know this if you are on EEF. Manetho gives Smendes 26... more
                  • Re: Ramesses XIIMarianne Luban, Mon Feb 27 09:05
                    FB wrote: "To Ms Luban, The Ian mentioned here is Ian Mladjov. He published his 2017 paper here: http://birminghamegyptology.co.uk/journal/ and you would know this if you are on EEF." Is it somehow... more
                  • egyptological nonsenseTory, Mon Feb 27 00:16
                    Manetho gives Smendes 26 years of reign and this is supported by the Year 25 date on the Banishment Stela since we have no evidence the Theban High Priests counted their years even when they... more
                  • Re: Ramesses XIITory, Sun Feb 26 21:08
                    There is no year 16 document where Pinudjem I "proclaims himself king." This is incorrect and misleading. There is a year 16 (anonymous) record when Masaharta was HPA. It says nothing about his royal ... more
                  • Re: Ramesses XIIFB, Sun Feb 26 19:48
                    As an aside, if 'king' Pinedjem I in Thebes really counted his years and we know he proclaimed himself king in Year 16 of an anonymous ruler's reign (likely Smendes) then why is the Banishment stela... more
                    • Re: Ramesses XIITory, Sun Feb 26 21:01
                      Where does the Banishment Stele mention anyone named king Smendes? The only king named anywhere in this record is king Pinudjem, father of HPA Menkheperre. There is not the slightest recognition of... more
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