Jaime O
Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?
Mon Mar 6, 2017 13:44
95.95.208.52

Hi Fabian, Kim, Tory

I appreciate your kind replies. Here goes an extensive one.

Fabian:

I appreciate a lot your replies. You see, I like testing things and possibilities, even when they might be outrageous or simply ridiculous. Ramses VIII was one of those tests. Usermaatre Heqawaset Ramses Mereramun sounds nothing like Ramses II, as Ian points it out, but one shouldn't forget that the fuzz about Mereramun was quickly forgotten after Ramses XI. Nesubanebdjed, Psusennes I and Pinudjem I are the closest successors of Ramses XI whose titularies have survived to us, and they prefer to apply Meriamun to their nomens. So, if Ramses 'XII' and Ramses VIII are to be equated, I don't see a huge problem: we'd have two facets of an ephemeral king, who applied different sets of epithets in his very short-lived regime. Totally possible, as meriamun was clearly in use again by the time Nesubanebdjed was king. However, after thinking and re-thinking and rereading, I don't feel the need to actually equate the two: it's just some food for thought. Ramses VIII is like a ghost, and nothing really ties him down anywhere in the 20th Dynasty list, expect to any time after Ramses III, so I tried to make something with Ian's thoughts before pulling a king out of the hat.

"Since the late Dynasty 20 period is the time when the Deir el Medina village shuts down and day to day documentation ends, it is likely the period when this king could reign almost totally unattested except in the Year 5 Wenamun report (where neither Herihor nor Smendes is called a king) and the two Year 6 HPA Herihor mummy bandages. (the HPA Herihor before he proclaimed himself king) "

Sure, and I slowly start to agree with the existence of this Ramses XII. Seems possible, maybe probable. However, I wouldn't bet on dating the events of Wenamun or the Year 6 bandages to his reign. Read more below, on my response to Kim.

Thank you for being kind enough to re-send the link, btw.

Kim:

"Welcome back."

I might as well just leave some comments on that thread of ours. I've had some ideas on Pasenhor's genealogy and how you and Tory have reconstructed it independently. Y'all seem to have get ahead of me in my silence, so I'll try to hop on that train when the timing's right (or simply just stand in front of it in hope of making a difference, Anna Karenina style).

"Not the precise position, no, but he was a son of Ramesses III."

I've read this on and on, and how he is identified with Prince Sethyherkhepeshef from Medinet Habu. But how sure can we be that this prince was fathered Ramses III? As far as I've read, it is thought that later kings such as Ramses VI have left their fingertips on the procession of princes in Medinet Habu, so some of Ramses VI's actual children have been taken to be Ramses III's. I've read multiple times (but can't confirm) that Montuherkhepeshef was actually son of Ramses VI but was taken to be Ramses III's; similarly, the stuck-in-the-mud-when-it-comes-to-ancient-history Wikipedia still claims Montuherkhepeshef was son of Ramses III. So, can we be sure R8 was a child of R3? If he was actually R6's, it's hypothetically possible that he was pushed away from the throne until late in the dynasty.

" He is unlikely to be alive after Ramesses X, which leaves only two possible positions (between V and VI, or between VII and IX) for a separate reign and the first of these appears to be fully occupied by the regnal counts of V and VI."

Interestingly, there was a delay on the burial of R5 under R6. Maybe a naughty king in between? Or a mere overlap. Or simply difficult times in the country.

" Herihor uses mr + R for Sety I in the docket detailing the re-interment of that king, suggesting that Herihor's anonymous king might also be using it."

It could simply be shades of Ramses XI. The use of the name might have been fresh. Unfortunately to us, much doesn't survive from Nesubanebdjed nor Psusennes I, so we can't really be sure if at any point in time they actually used Mereramun in their nomen, but we can be sure Meriamun (and even Merimaat) was in use again, and kept that way throughout the TIP. It could also be shades of Ramses XII; read below why I'm not reluctant to accept the existence of a R12 but am to date anything by him.

"(...) Wenamun's story is a novelisation. Smendes is not named as king, or as Herihor's superior. Both are named as foremost of the great ones of Egypt."

Yes, Wenamun is likelier than not fiction based on historical truth, seemingly close to what today we call an historical novel. However, Wenamun does indicate that Nesubanebdjed is superior to Herihor. When it comes to money and timber, Wenamun cites that the money he has brought with him belongs to Amun, to Nesubanebdjed, to Herihor, and the other magnates of Egypt. The king of Byblos also seems to care more about what Nesubanebdjed has to say on the affair than Herihor, who initially send Wenamun. Judging from these two factoids alone, and trying to recreate a bigger picture, it makes sense to deduce that Nesubanebdjed is in fact superior to Herihor and to the other magnates in the land: he is inferior only to Amun himself. The reason why the man of Tanis is not called king? I believe the author wanted to make a point by putting Amun above human policy: he is the ruler of the universe, and to his word we all should bow. Wenamun tries to bring the king of Byblos to his will by evoking Amun's name and glory, and Zakar-Baal eventually recognizes the might of the god. Amun stands above any sovereign: this interpretation will make sense if we assume, like some scholars do, that the Report was written during the Libyan Period, in a time when kings were multiplying and Egypt's glory was fading.

" Well, someone certainly reigned these years (up to year 7) but is it Smendes?"

At light of what I said above, I'd agree with Tory it should be Smendes. It explains his presence in Upper Egypt and his actions as recorded in Wenamun's Report: whoever Hedjkheperre Nesubanebdjed was, he was certainly a man with power in both the north and the south. However, it seems odd that a man of such power and quality and extensive domain would left few artifacts attesting his existence: the climate in Upper Egypt seems to best preserve antiquity in comparison with the moist Delta, so where is Nesubanebdjed? A shorter reign of [6] years fits better the evidence, and it goes well with Year 5 of the Report and the bandages of Year 6 by Herihor. This logic alone makes me believe an hypothetical R12 must have reigned for even a shorter time-span. If R10, reigning in very difficult times, left vestiges of his regime of just 3 or 4 years, where did R12, certainly not living during calmer times, and all his legacy went? I believe you already got my idea. If anything, he didn't reign longer than R8, one of the reasons why I thought these might be the same king.

" The year 6 under 1PA Painedjem is not the same reign as the year 6 under Herihor. Nor is it likely to be Herihor's year 6, since Herihor's royal prenomen is "First Prophet of Amun"."

You misread me. I meant to say that Year 6 of Herihor (not actually his, just a year during which he is mentioned in bandages) and Year 6 of Pinudjem I can't be the same. We know Herihor outlived Ramses XI because he became king, and we know he wasn't king in someone else's Year 6. We also know this Year 6 can't be from the Whm Mswt era as previously thought. Therefore, a logical deduction would be that Herihor's Year 6 is from a king who came between Ramses XI and Herihor himself, and Pinudjem I's Year 6 is from another king who lived after Herihor's Year 6. I state that Nesubanebdjed came in between Ramses XI and Herihor, and Herihor succeeded him: Pinudjem I was HPA during these years, to him belong the bandages of years 6-15 attested by the son of Piankh. Follow the succession of HPAs as I reconstruct it:

Under Ramses XI:
- Amenhotep, Years 1-(6)
- Ur-Menkheperre, Years 6-(7 Whm Mswt)
- Piankh, Years 7 [Whm Mswt]-(12)
- Herihor, Years (12)-27
Under Nesubanebdjed
- Herihor, Years 1-(7)
Under Herihor
- Pinudjem I, Years (1)-15

" There is a gap in any case, as Maatkare A is not particularly old at death. There is one other GW named (another Henttawy) and one of the Isetemkhebs (probably either the wife of Menkheperre or the wife of Painedjem II) was the mother of a GW."

Excuse my English. I meant a gap in knowledge. The thing is: Maatkare A was clearly a child and a GW as attested in Karnak in a time when Henuttawy A and Nodjmet, both King's Daughter like her, where adults and Pinudjem I was around as HPA but not as king. Henuttawy was already a queen, a Lady of the Two Lands. We also know Henuttawy was mother of a God's Wife of Amun. It seems to me that Maatkare A is likelier than not the daughter of Henuttawy, as no GW is attested at this time. It is equally logical to assume that these three women had the same father. Under Tory's scenario, where Henuttawy marries her (step-?) father, all of this is reconciled: Henuttawy and Maatkare A are still King's Daughter (of Nesubanebdjed) and Maatkare A manages to be a child-priestess and daughter of Henuttawy at the same time. One of things I used to struggle with your interpretation of this scene was that it implied that Smendes, ruling in the North while the south was ruled by someone else (Herihor), was able to get his daughters induced in the Theban priesthood, and even got a baby girl of his blood to be the high-priestess, yet Herihor, presumably a king who was physically closer to Thebes, wasn't able to do this, yet we know he had daughters of his own. In Tory's scenario, however, this is explained, as Nesubanebdjed rules Egypt alone for 6 years, enough to father Maatkare and induce her into the Theban priesthood.

Just a note on Isetemkheb: is there any chance this is the same woman who was married to the son of Piankh? I know she is attested alongside Pinudjem in bricks from El-Hiba, but I don't know details. It would at least keep the pattern of kings naming their daughters as successors of the GW.

Tory:

" But we *do* have an explicit record dated year 48 OF HPA Menkheperre. So I don't see why the Karnak record needs to be disassociated with this."

Yes, I thought of that after posting my post. The bandage of year 48 makes certain that Menkheperre started to exercise eponym at some point; however, what's the difference between the Karnak record and the rest? It has the year-date followed by HPA Menkheperre son of King Pinudjem; Pinudjem I is the only king mentioned in the record, like those records from Years 25-40 you dated by him; the alternative of these dates belonging to Menkheperre sounds better but still...

" I'm going to give more thought to the year 6 Herihor and year 6 Menkheperre problem, but as far as I'm concerned the wHm-mswt began in a year 9 and scribal error is not an option. So I reject year 6 of the wHm-mswt since the record does not say wHm-mswt and it would have to to avoid a confusion with the year 6 in the discontinued year count as of year 9."

The problem with not identifying Year 6 with that of the Whm-Mswt (which I didn't, above) is that the linens of Menkheperre and Herihor, assuming this is an earlier Menkheperre, become separated by some 33 years. Nevertheless, I envisage an earlier Menkheperre like late Terry had it: maybe he was the husband of Herher, father of Nodjmet (and Nesubanebdjed??) and grandfather of Herihor. This doesn't mean the same-named son of Pinudjem I didn't become HPA in the earliest years of his father and exercise his priesthood for some 49 years or so; I would like a scenario where Menkheperre is HPA in the north and Masaharta, the crown-prince, in the south.

Kind regards to all, Jaime

  • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Fabian B, Sun Mar 5 14:38
    Ramesses VIII cannot be the postulated Ramesses XII because he used the popular Amun based epithet meryamun in his royal titulary as one of the pre-Ramesses IX Ramesside kings. He is attested by only ... more
    • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII? — Jaime O, Mon Mar 6 13:44
      • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Kim Sargerson, Sat Mar 11 04:49
        Hello Jaime "I might as well just leave some comments on that thread of ours. I've had some ideas on Pasenhor's genealogy..." Please do. I look forward to it, if you have the time. "I've read this on ... more
        • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Jaime O, Sat Mar 11 14:06
          Hi Kim, Thank you for the reply. "Please do. I look forward to it, if you have the time." It won't be nothing new or inventive. As soon as I can get some more time and space, I'll type something. "I... more
          • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Kim Sargerson, Tue Mar 14 18:38
            Hi Jaime "one needs to take account some of the genealogies that compose the backbone of the dynasty" As far as I can tell, only the Deir el Medina foremen seem to span the dynasty, and the... more
            • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Jaime O, Wed Mar 22 09:33
              Hi Kim, forgive me for the extent of the last reply. This one might not be very different, so I apologize in advance. I wrote: "And we know from the Khonsu Temple that Herihor did act almost as king... more
              • Re: Ramses XII, and early Dyn 21Kim Sargerson, Thu Mar 23 13:26
                Hi Jaime You wrote "Exactly, which is why I do see Smendes coming between Ramses XI and Herihor as resolution to some problems, but may only be desirable until one comes up with something new." This... more
                • Herihor the HPA-kingTory, Mon Mar 27 23:48
                  Hi all, The oracle of Herihor (Oracular Decree of High Priest Herihor, OIP3, p. 15, Plate 132) makes it clear that he was HPA for 30 years. 10 years as HPA had already elapsed when the oracle was... more
                  • Early 21st DynastyJaime O, Wed Mar 29 08:43
                    Hi Kim and Tory Thank you for the replies. Kim: I do not think there is enough evidence to place Nesbanebdjed the king before or after Herihor the king. However, it still leaves a gap i.e. who was... more
                    • Early 21st DynastyJaime O, Thu Mar 30 13:45
                      There is an error in my previous tables, allow me to correct (and revise Menkheperre Bs tenure, presuming his Year 48 might be an error for something else): KINGS: - Ramses XI, 0-35 - Ramses XII,... more
      • Year 6 reorsificationTory, Tue Mar 7 02:34
        Hi Kim and Jaime: G3, 232, I: year 6, II Peret 7: the vizier, general and 1PA Herihor ordered the reosirification of Menmaatre Sety-mererptah G3, 263, 5, I: fine linen made by the 1PA Menkheperre in... more
        • re: Year 6 reosirificationKim Sargerson, Wed Mar 8 18:24
          Hi Tory I have no doubt that the New Kingdom royals were indeed routinely plundered by these priests. It seems to have been a kind of "last resort", so they did a group in a short time, then there... more
          • re: Year 6 reosirificationTory, Thu Mar 9 08:12
            Hi Kim The way I see it, there is no need for yet another new person to be injected into this period. No Ramesses "XII" or Menkheperre "A". If there is a HPA Menkheperre "A" who reosirified Sety I,... more
            • re: Year 6 reosirificationKim Sargerson, Wed Mar 15 17:11
              Hi Tory Sorry has taken so long to reply. I didn't "get" this for the longest time, but: once the ATM withdrawal has been made, this particular source of revenue is gone. If Herihor cashed in Sety's... more
      • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Fabian B, Mon Mar 6 14:22
        Dear Jaime, Thanks for your intelligent response. I am starting to think that Ramesses XII did exist too. As for Ramesses VIII, I do accept that he was a son of Ramesses III since it would explain... more
    • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Fabian B, Sun Mar 5 14:47
      Correction to my post: I said "Ramesses II never used the Amun based epithet meryamun." I meant that Ramesses II never used the Amun based epithet Mereramun. Ramesses II, Ramesses III through to... more
    • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Fabian B, Sun Mar 5 14:40
      The image link was: www.ancient.co.uk/userfiles/images/REVISED%20PETRIE%202015%20SLIDE%20SHOW/37%20WADI%20HAMMAMAT.jpg You can add http:// in front
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