Kim Sargerson
Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?
Sat Mar 11, 2017 04:49

Hello Jaime

"I might as well just leave some comments on that thread of ours. I've had some ideas on Pasenhor's genealogy..."
Please do. I look forward to it, if you have the time.

"I've read this on and on, and how he is identified with Prince Sethyherkhepeshef from Medinet Habu."
There are lots of theories about the arrangement of the dynasty, including that R.VI was the son of "Pentawer". It seems that R.III was modelling himself on R.II and naming his sons in similar fashion. However, you have a point, as prince Set(khy)herkhopshef son of R.II appears to be the same man as Amunherkhopshef, whereas the princes in D20 are different individuals.
I accept there may be a Setherkhopshef who was the son of a later king than R.III. However, some of the "overlap" theories for the dynasty make the Pentawer conspiracy redundant, as any male line descendant of R.III, it seems, could simply set himself up as a king at any time...R.III complicates matters not only by not sticking to one Great Wife at a time, but also by giving more than one son the same name (Ramesses, Amunherkhopshef, I think have at least two of each alive at the same time). Montuherkhopshef is currently touted as possibly the father of R.IX but not himself a king.

"Interestingly, there was a delay on the burial of R5 under R6. Maybe a naughty king in between? Or a mere overlap."
I agree this is a peculiarity. Perhaps the tomb had been opened for a purpose and then re-closed. Perhaps R.VI had appropriated V's original tomb and it took this long to prepare a replacement. I don't see overlap as the solution here, as we have effectively competing lineages for a single throne. So R.IV/R.V is one line, R.VI/R.VII a second and R.IX/R.X a third. It is easily possible that in each father-son group there was an overlap (coregency if you wish) but less likely an overlap between R.V and R.VI his uncle (with V as senior king) or between VII and either VIII or IX.
Given the unusual succession sequence, reminiscent of the Second Intermediate, and the condition of the surviving royal mummies, there seems to be room for speculation here.

"However, Wenamun does indicate that Nesubanebdjed is superior to Herihor."
By naming him first, and repeatedly, to persons who likely as not had never heard of Herihor, but dealt regularly with Nesbanebdjed?
Even if Nesbanebdjed outranked Herihor in the pecking order, it should be clear that Wenamun names them both as "great ones" of Egypt, not kings. The year 5 in which the action is set fits well with the year before Herihor's first dated attestation as vizier/1PA. If Nesbanebdjed's year 5 is the one being referenced, then it is his years 6 and 7 also under Herihor as 1PA. By the time Herihor has himself become a king, and died, we might be up to about year 10. This means that the years 6-15 of the 1PA Painedjem A, assuming they are one reign and are to be taken in that order, must relate to the successor of Nesbanebdjed. Is this Amunemnisu, or Psusennes I?
There are problems with either answer, which is why Kitchen opts for Painedjem I having no regnal years.

"I meant to say that Year 6 of Herihor (not actually his, just a year during which he is mentioned in bandages) and Year 6 of Pinudjem I can't be the same."
Understood now. Agreed.

"I state that Nesubanebdjed came in between Ramses XI and Herihor, and Herihor succeeded him: Pinudjem I was HPA during these years"
I just don't see that king {First Prophet of Amun}{Herihor-Siamun} has given up his priesthood when he becomes king. I think the same ambiguity exists for Painedjem I - even though he sports a "proper" prenomen, in his (?) year 8 as king he is still giving orders regarding the disposal of royal mummies, and does not seem to have given up his priestly role.

"I meant a gap in knowledge."
Making Maatkare A the sister-daughter of Henttawy A increases the time gap, so there does not appear to be any net gain.
The only other possible candidate in D21 is the "GW of pharaoh Osorkon" mentioned in the T.Khonsu genealogy. This Tashaenkheper is given no ancestry, and had a child (Ryurehen A) who is not called "king's son", so there are problems with any option.

"Maatkare A was clearly a child and a GW as attested in Karnak in a time when Henuttawy A and Nodjmet, both King's Daughter like her, where adults and Pinudjem I was around as HPA but not as king. Henuttawy was already a queen, a Lady of the Two Lands."
If Maatkare is 8, Nedjemmut 14 and Henttawy A 16, being sent by their royal father to take up duties at Thebes and being met by Painedjem, I do not see a difficulty. "Lady of the 2 Lands" is not synonymous with "King's Wife", and is frequently borne by Gods Wives of Amun, for example, including those not known to be married. Maatkare herself is never without it.
If Henttawy is (say) a daughter of the previous dynasty, as often hypothesised, married to Nesbanebdjed and then to Painedjem, she would have to remarry after Nesbanebdjed's death (I do not think royal divorce is an option). But she is not titled King's Wife at this point, only later, when Painedjem becomes a king. Likewise she appears to be titled King's Mother earlier than King's Wife.

"It seems to me that Maatkare A is likelier than not the daughter of Henuttawy, as no GW is attested at this time."
I can only imagine that Iset, daughter of R.VI, was still in post, at a very advanced age. If she was about 10 when R.VI died, she would be about 67 when R.XI died, assuming consecutive reigns of the shortest length available from the evidence.

"One of things I used to struggle with your interpretation of this scene was that it implied that Smendes, ruling in the North while the south was ruled by someone else (Herihor), was able to get his daughters induced in the Theban priesthood"
A fair point. However, if Smendes is indeed the "king of the whole country" and the God's Wife had to be a princess, this sort of disappears as a problem. I don't think Herihor as king lasted very long, and he was not succeeded by a son, unless that son is either Nesbanebdjed or Amunemnisu. The first son named at Karnak is not titled "first/eldest royal son". His large family vanishes, with the exception of queen Nedjemet and possibly prince Ankhefenmut.

"yet Herihor, presumably a king who was physically closer to Thebes, wasn't able to do this, yet we know he had daughters of his own."
I think that the "sons" and "daughters" of Herihor always included his extended family i.e. his sons, their wives, their sons and daughters, and his daughters and their husbands and their sons. I don't think that Herihor had any daughters still young enough to be unmarried and eligible.

"In Tory's scenario, however, this is explained, as Nesubanebdjed rules Egypt alone for 6 years, enough to father Maatkare and induce her into the Theban priesthood."
I am not sure which incarnation of Tory's and my suggestions you are using here. Certainly does not explain why Herihor did not get in first as the man on the spot.

"Just a note on Isetemkheb: is there any chance this is the same woman who was married to the son of Piankh? I know she is attested alongside Pinudjem in bricks from El-Hiba, but I don't know details."
It is possible, but then you would have two girls of roughly the same age (Maatkare A and the daughter of Isetemkheb A) both God's Wives. One or both would have short tenures, not improving the gaps, and there would be a time paradox if Isetemkheb A's daughter had to be the daughter of a reigning king to be eligible. But perhaps the latter status was not obligatory, as the rank of Henttawy D is not known.

" It would at least keep the pattern of kings naming their daughters as successors of the GW."
The position of Adoratrix seems to have been as high as a non-royal could go in the New Kingdom. In this period, however, it seems to have been used as a way of installing the future GW (of royal descent) at the appropriate age, without relying on the reigning king having a daughter of that age available to step up immediately as GW when the old one died. The installation of Iset daughter of R.VI appears to have been done in the lifetime of her predecessor, and was initially Adoratrix, since she retained this title in her personal cartouche {duat-netjer Iset}.



  • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Jaime O, Mon Mar 6 13:44
    Hi Fabian, Kim, Tory I appreciate your kind replies. Here goes an extensive one. Fabian: I appreciate a lot your replies. You see, I like testing things and possibilities, even when they might be... more
    • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII? — Kim Sargerson, Sat Mar 11 04:49
      • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Jaime O, Sat Mar 11 14:06
        Hi Kim, Thank you for the reply. "Please do. I look forward to it, if you have the time." It won't be nothing new or inventive. As soon as I can get some more time and space, I'll type something. "I... more
        • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Kim Sargerson, Tue Mar 14 18:38
          Hi Jaime "one needs to take account some of the genealogies that compose the backbone of the dynasty" As far as I can tell, only the Deir el Medina foremen seem to span the dynasty, and the... more
          • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Jaime O, Wed Mar 22 09:33
            Hi Kim, forgive me for the extent of the last reply. This one might not be very different, so I apologize in advance. I wrote: "And we know from the Khonsu Temple that Herihor did act almost as king... more
            • Re: Ramses XII, and early Dyn 21Kim Sargerson, Thu Mar 23 13:26
              Hi Jaime You wrote "Exactly, which is why I do see Smendes coming between Ramses XI and Herihor as resolution to some problems, but may only be desirable until one comes up with something new." This... more
              • Herihor the HPA-kingTory, Mon Mar 27 23:48
                Hi all, The oracle of Herihor (Oracular Decree of High Priest Herihor, OIP3, p. 15, Plate 132) makes it clear that he was HPA for 30 years. 10 years as HPA had already elapsed when the oracle was... more
                • Early 21st DynastyJaime O, Wed Mar 29 08:43
                  Hi Kim and Tory Thank you for the replies. Kim: I do not think there is enough evidence to place Nesbanebdjed the king before or after Herihor the king. However, it still leaves a gap i.e. who was... more
                  • Early 21st DynastyJaime O, Thu Mar 30 13:45
                    There is an error in my previous tables, allow me to correct (and revise Menkheperre Bs tenure, presuming his Year 48 might be an error for something else): KINGS: - Ramses XI, 0-35 - Ramses XII,... more
    • Year 6 reorsificationTory, Tue Mar 7 02:34
      Hi Kim and Jaime: G3, 232, I: year 6, II Peret 7: the vizier, general and 1PA Herihor ordered the reosirification of Menmaatre Sety-mererptah G3, 263, 5, I: fine linen made by the 1PA Menkheperre in... more
      • re: Year 6 reosirificationKim Sargerson, Wed Mar 8 18:24
        Hi Tory I have no doubt that the New Kingdom royals were indeed routinely plundered by these priests. It seems to have been a kind of "last resort", so they did a group in a short time, then there... more
        • re: Year 6 reosirificationTory, Thu Mar 9 08:12
          Hi Kim The way I see it, there is no need for yet another new person to be injected into this period. No Ramesses "XII" or Menkheperre "A". If there is a HPA Menkheperre "A" who reosirified Sety I,... more
          • re: Year 6 reosirificationKim Sargerson, Wed Mar 15 17:11
            Hi Tory Sorry has taken so long to reply. I didn't "get" this for the longest time, but: once the ATM withdrawal has been made, this particular source of revenue is gone. If Herihor cashed in Sety's... more
    • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Fabian B, Mon Mar 6 14:22
      Dear Jaime, Thanks for your intelligent response. I am starting to think that Ramesses XII did exist too. As for Ramesses VIII, I do accept that he was a son of Ramesses III since it would explain... more
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