Jaime O
Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?
Sat Mar 11, 2017 14:06

Hi Kim,

Thank you for the reply.

"Please do. I look forward to it, if you have the time."

It won't be nothing new or inventive. As soon as I can get some more time and space, I'll type something.

"I accept there may be a Setherkhopshef who was the son of a later king than R.III. However, some of the "overlap" theories for the dynasty make the Pentawer conspiracy redundant, as any male line descendant of R.III, it seems, could simply set himself up as a king at any time (...)"

Yes, surely, and whatever overlap one wants to propose during this period, one needs to take account some of the genealogies that compose the backbone of the dynasty, because, with some exceptions (like R9, who at least named three of his predecessors), it's seems hard to find any hard evidence of who succeeded who. Whatever the case, I do not aim at any overlap; if anything, read below.

"I agree this is a peculiarity. Perhaps the tomb had been opened for a purpose and then re-closed. Perhaps R.VI had appropriated V's original tomb and it took this long to prepare a replacement. I don't see overlap as the solution here, as we have effectively competing lineages for a single throne."

R5 probably wasn't expected to die young. His mummy is that of a relatively young man (I read once somewhere he was close to 30s, while R4 was thought to be around 40-50, which seems odd, unless these princes were fathering children since adolescence), and his mummy also shows signs of smallpox, so he may have died unexpectedly. We also know from contemporary documentation that Egypt was turned upside down with foreigners coming into the land, left and right; all of this seems to be the best explanation for the delay of his burial. R6, whether his uncle or cousin, was probably the first guy to actually care of burying him, or he usurped the throne. We can't really know. My comments here were more playful than serious: I still think R8 fits better somewhere between R5-R6, and R7-R9. My point was if we can really be sure if Prince Sethyherkhepeshef was actually a son of R3 or of R6, in which case we should feel compel to accept R8's position in between R7 and R9.

"By naming him first, and repeatedly, to persons who likely as not had never heard of Herihor, but dealt regularly with Nesbanebdjed?"

But it was Herihor who first approached Wenamun. And we know from the Khonsu Temple that Herihor did act almost as king besides Ramses XI while never taking royal regalia until later. Who was Nesubanebdjed to be heard outside of Egypt where Herihor acts as if he was the (dead) Pharaoh's favorite?

"Even if Nesbanebdjed outranked Herihor in the pecking order, it should be clear that Wenamun names them both as "great ones" of Egypt, not kings. The year 5 in which the action is set fits well with the year before Herihor's first dated attestation as vizier/1PA. If Nesbanebdjed's year 5 is the one being referenced, then it is his years 6 and 7 also under Herihor as 1PA. By the time Herihor has himself become a king, and died, we might be up to about year 10."

Actually, Nesubanebdjed and Herihor are above the "great ones", although translations mention "*the other* great ones", so I can't say you are totally wrong if you want to state that the heads of the northern and the southern households were merely "great ones". In theory, they were. But one of them is more than a magnate. If there was a king in the land, he was the one between Amun-Ra and his First Prophet, and Wenamun clearly understands Nesubanebdjed to be this man, otherwise he would have mentioned the king, or at least spoke of Herihor right below Amun, as his priest and the one who actually send him to Byblos.

"If Nesbanebdjed's year 5 is the one being referenced, then it is his years 6 and 7 also under Herihor as 1PA. By the time Herihor has himself become a king, and died, we might be up to about year 10. This means that the years 6-15 of the 1PA Painedjem A, assuming they are one reign and are to be taken in that order, must relate to the successor of Nesbanebdjed. Is this Amunemnisu, or Psusennes I?"

Why not Herihor? It has been my interpretation since before entering this forum that Years 6-15 should belong to Herihor: he was king and he was apparently centered in Thebes. In a scenario where Paiankh dies in early Whm-Mswt to be succeeded by Herihor makes it possible what evidences tell us, that Herihor was actually a king in his own right, and as the Pharaoh he must have exercised eponym. See more below.

"I just don't see that king {First Prophet of Amun}{Herihor-Siamun} has given up his priesthood when he becomes king. I think the same ambiguity exists for Painedjem I - even though he sports a "proper" prenomen, in his (?) year 8 as king he is still giving orders regarding the disposal of royal mummies, and does not seem to have given up his priestly role."

I don't argue that Herihor-Siamun gave up on his priesthood. What I argue is that ritualistically there was always the need for a HPA, even though the Pharaoh was par excellence the first prophet of his father Amun. Shoshenq I also commissioned and dedicated fabric to the burial of mummies, but he was never a HPA in his own right; this is to be found among the linens that once wrapped Djedptahefankh, and we also find linens made under HPA Iuput at the same time. I don't see any problem with Herihor acting as the King-Priest while Pinudjem I (his brother, in my model) acts as the practical HPA, commissioning linens, oracles, etc.. Painudjem I's relief at Karnak, I believe, were carved under Herihor-Siamun, but there was no need to actually have two priests in the same frame or the king and the priest, like Ramesses XI and Herihor; or Painudjem I was simply as influential as the pharaoh and could perfectly afford his own display of power and priesthood.

The model that Tory proposes, and the one I'm flirting with right now, is one where Nesubanebdjed succeeds for 6-7 years, Herihor succeeds him in turn and Pinudjem I afterwards. Amunemnisu comes about the same time as Painudjem I; the personal touch I added here was to make Amunemnisu the child of Nesubanebdjed and Henuttawy A, meaning that he and Psusennes I could only be sired after the death of Ramses XI, thus making both automatically too young to rule. Ironically, I came to such a scenario by allowing Psusennes I to die at the age of c75, similar to what Dr. Douglas Derry deduced.

I do, however, recognize that this solution might not be the better one. For instance, if Herihor succeeded Smendes both in the south and the north, where are his attestations in Tanis, or when did his name fell out of 'Manetho'? Even Pinudjem I made his way into the north. Maybe Herihor is still waiting to be found attested there...

" Making Maatkare A the sister-daughter of Henttawy A increases the time gap, so there does not appear to be any net gain."

I think it just expands her tenure. Because she didn't live many years, in comparison with her Libyan and Saite successors, I'd feel tempted, putting Smendes I's Year 1 in 1070, to date her tenure from 1062-1020. All of this approximated, of course. The difference here is that you have Maatkare already born around 1070, whilst I'd have her born during Smendes's reign in such a scenario.

" The only other possible candidate in D21 is the "GW of pharaoh Osorkon" mentioned in the T.Khonsu genealogy. This Tashaenkheper is given no ancestry, and had a child (Ryurehen A) who is not called "king's son", so there are problems with any option."

I interpret GW of pharaoh X as the same as KW of pharaoh X, but this is open to debate. Similarly, the default reading I do of God's Mother without the name of a god as referring to a king; I make these assertions based on Pasenhor's genealogy.

" If Maatkare is 8, Nedjemmut 14 and Henttawy A 16, being sent by their royal father to take up duties at Thebes and being met by Painedjem, I do not see a difficulty. "Lady of the 2 Lands" is not synonymous with "King's Wife", and is frequently borne by Gods Wives of Amun, for example, including those not known to be married. Maatkare herself is never without it."

But Henuttawy is not a GWA, if she were she would have been buried as such, I'd believe, and Maatkare wouldn't have had that title earlier. So Lady of the Two Lands, for Henuttawy A, must have another meaning, and we should presume she was already a king before she married Pinudjem I. You also wrote: " If Henttawy is (say) a daughter of the previous dynasty, as often hypothesised, married to Nesbanebdjed and then to Painedjem, she would have to remarry after Nesbanebdjed's death (I do not think royal divorce is an option). But she is not titled King's Wife at this point, only later, when Painedjem becomes a king. Likewise she appears to be titled King's Mother earlier than King's Wife.". Yes, I understand this, but what else could Lady of the Two Lands mean if Henuttawy was not a GWA, which she wasn't? If by King's Mother before King's Wife you referring to the one bracelet some Henuttawy offered Psusennes I, then I can only say I interpret this as Henuttawy A gifting her son with something that identified her as his mother; as we can attest from this burial, D21 royals didn't feel the need to always identifying themselves by their full titularies, or their predecessors, as HPA Smendes B himself gifted Psusennes with a bracelet where he appears as 'HPA Smendes son of Menkheperre', although Menkheperre was a HP as well. The Coptos Stela, however, shows that Henuttawy, at some point, was both wife of a king and mother of a king, but the fact that only one king appears (Pinudjem I) suggests, at least to me, that a) Pinudjem I married his own mother, or b) Henuttawy A had a son who was king at the time but not Pinudjem I's coregent, so they may not have been father and son. As you can guess, in the model I'm flirting with right now, this stela was made at a time when Pinudjem I was king in the south and Amunemnisu or Psusennes I in the north.

" I can only imagine that Iset, daughter of R.VI, was still in post, at a very advanced age. If she was about 10 when R.VI died, she would be about 67 when R.XI died, assuming consecutive reigns of the shortest length available from the evidence."

Agree. Let's picture this then:

- Setnakht, 0-3
- Ramses III, 3-34
- Ramses IV, 34-40
- Ramses V, 40-44
- Ramses VI, 44-52
- Ramses VII, 52-59
- Ramses VIII, 59-60
- Ramses IX, 60-78
- Ramses X, 78-81
- Ramses XI, 81-115

As we don't have any GW attested at the end of the 20th Dynasty, you might be right by suggesting that Iset was still holding the title by the time. Allowing Ramses VI to be c37 at his ascension, thus dying aged c45 which seems to go along with his mummy and as successor of his nephew, Iset could have been, say, c7 in 44, being born in 37, and living at least to 115. She would thus have lived at least 78 years, and had a very long tenure for sure. It seems like no Ramesside king between Ramses VII and Ramses XI was able to give her a proper successor: this might have come later, when Henuttawy A or anyone at the turn of the dynasties gave birth to a daughter and Iset was still alive and well to finally rejoice at the possibility of adoption. The numbers I presented are subject to debate, as some will eventually argue that the Whm-Mswt began in Year 19 (I won't) and dates of some kings, namely Setnakht, R5, R7, R8 and R10 are still contreversial to some extent, i.e. they might be higher by 1 or 2 years, and adding 1 year to these five kings will surely extend Iset's lifetime and tenure, although coming from a GWA, extreme longevity should not astonish us.

" A fair point. However, if Smendes is indeed the "king of the whole country" and the God's Wife had to be a princess, this sort of disappears as a problem."

Yes, but this is what Tory proposes. Do you propose Smendes coming in between R11 and Herihor, or Smendes and Herihor coming at the same time?

" The first son [of Herihor] named at Karnak is not titled "first/eldest royal son". His large family vanishes, with the exception of queen Nedjemet and possibly prince Ankhefenmut."

Interesting. I do note that only the three first princes plus the 18th have more titles than just King's Bodily sons; maybe Herihor only presented his sons once he became king while his sons-in-law were left to be happy with just a misleading title (misleading for us, not much for them). The 18th could have been just a local priest married into royalty, of course.

Whatever the case, you've stressed first that Maatkare, Henuttawy A and Nodjmet should be interpreted as Smendes's daughters, which I agree under further interpretation. And if so, then I'd dare to speculate this Nodjmet might be the same woman as the wife of Herihor. In my model, I have divided the Nodjmets into Nodjmet A, the mother of Herihor, and Nojdmet B, the wife and probably daughter of Nodjmet A with Paiankh; but with another woman of the same name at the same place, at the same time, there is no need for such. Nodjmet King's Daughter might have been present at Thebes when Painudjem I was HPA, Herihor was king, but she was still not married to him.

" I don't think that Herihor had any daughters still young enough to be unmarried and eligible."

This depends on how we interpret evidence. You don't see a Nodjmet as mother of Herihor, while I do. In my model, Herihor wasn't much older than 45 when he died: he could totally have fathered a girl and have the time to enthrone her as GWA.

" I am not sure which incarnation of Tory's and my suggestions you are using here. Certainly does not explain why Herihor did not get in first as the man on the spot."

I'm just mentioning Tory's, which I feel resolves some problems. I'm fusing the two perspetives: one which holds Smendes I came in between R11 and Herihor (Tory), and another which holds Maatkare, Henuttawy A and Nodjmet were Smendes's daughters (Kim). I believe these two positions go very well together. But yes, it does not answer as to why Herihor did not succeed Ramses XI when, as I pointed out above, he was some sort of crown-prince.

" It is possible, but then you would have two girls of roughly the same age (Maatkare A and the daughter of Isetemkheb A) both God's Wives. [...]there would be a time paradox if Isetemkheb A's daughter had to be the daughter of a reigning king to be eligible. But perhaps the latter status was not obligatory, as the rank of Henttawy D is not known."

You're totally right. In my enthusiasm for closing the gap (in knowledge), I forgot that I was putting Isetemkheb A's daughter and Maatkare A in the same generation. Maybe to be a princess was not mandatory, but who else had the ways to become the high-priestess of Amun in a time when the line between monarchy and priesthood was more tenuous than ever (and there was never a clear distinction between both in Ancient Egypt!)? I'd stick to identifying this Isetemkheb with the wife of HP Menkheperre, whom we know exercised eponym and claimed some royal regalia (the latter detail will certainly be contested, but I don't know if we can really debate the first one). In this scenario, however, Menkheperre would have two daughters by the name of Henuttawy: the sister-wife of HPA Smendes B and mother of another Isetemkheb, and the God's Wife of Amun. I'm not particularly bothered by this, especially if Smendes B and his wife were children from an early wife. If you want to argue a longer reign for Nesubanebdjed I (somewhere between 16 and 26 years), you might as well argue that Menkheperre fathered Smendes B during his adolescence under that king, thus giving a loyalty name to the baby, a name so rare within and outside the royal family.

Thank you for the clarifying comment on the Adoratrix, etc.

My honest regards,

  • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Kim Sargerson, Sat Mar 11 04:49
    Hello Jaime "I might as well just leave some comments on that thread of ours. I've had some ideas on Pasenhor's genealogy..." Please do. I look forward to it, if you have the time. "I've read this on ... more
    • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII? — Jaime O, Sat Mar 11 14:06
      • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Kim Sargerson, Tue Mar 14 18:38
        Hi Jaime "one needs to take account some of the genealogies that compose the backbone of the dynasty" As far as I can tell, only the Deir el Medina foremen seem to span the dynasty, and the... more
        • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Jaime O, Wed Mar 22 09:33
          Hi Kim, forgive me for the extent of the last reply. This one might not be very different, so I apologize in advance. I wrote: "And we know from the Khonsu Temple that Herihor did act almost as king... more
          • Re: Ramses XII, and early Dyn 21Kim Sargerson, Thu Mar 23 13:26
            Hi Jaime You wrote "Exactly, which is why I do see Smendes coming between Ramses XI and Herihor as resolution to some problems, but may only be desirable until one comes up with something new." This... more
            • Herihor the HPA-kingTory, Mon Mar 27 23:48
              Hi all, The oracle of Herihor (Oracular Decree of High Priest Herihor, OIP3, p. 15, Plate 132) makes it clear that he was HPA for 30 years. 10 years as HPA had already elapsed when the oracle was... more
              • Early 21st DynastyJaime O, Wed Mar 29 08:43
                Hi Kim and Tory Thank you for the replies. Kim: I do not think there is enough evidence to place Nesbanebdjed the king before or after Herihor the king. However, it still leaves a gap i.e. who was... more
                • Early 21st DynastyJaime O, Thu Mar 30 13:45
                  There is an error in my previous tables, allow me to correct (and revise Menkheperre Bs tenure, presuming his Year 48 might be an error for something else): KINGS: - Ramses XI, 0-35 - Ramses XII,... more
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