Kim Sargerson
Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?
Tue Mar 14, 2017 18:38

Hi Jaime

"one needs to take account some of the genealogies that compose the backbone of the dynasty"
As far as I can tell, only the Deir el Medina foremen seem to span the dynasty, and the reconstruction of them (based in many cases on anonymous regnal years) does seem to be tenuous. By that I mean that the structure and sequence of the kings appears to be confirming the genealogical sequence, not the other way round.

"R5 probably wasn't expected to die young. His mummy is that of a relatively young man (I read once somewhere he was close to 30s, while R4 was thought to be around 40-50, which seems odd"
Not quite, but is difficult due to the wide range of estimates and the poor condition of the mummies. If R.III was about 65 at death, his eldest son R.IV about 45 at death 6 years later, and his eldest R.V about 25, 4 years after that, the generations are c26 and c24 years for the two intervening father/son intervals. At 20-year generations (not an average here but a possible actual) R.V could be as old as 35 at death.

"We also know from contemporary documentation that Egypt was turned upside down with foreigners coming into the land, left and right; all of this seems to be the best explanation for the delay of his burial."
But, if we have the right mummy, the usual preparations were carried out in the usual timeframe. To rough carve and plaster decorate a small new tomb of R.V (because R.VI appropriated his original one) would be a matter of months, not excess of a year. Perhaps more strikes, not yet documented? It is worth emphasising, since R.III is usually held up as an example of success and stability compared with his shortlived successors, that the first Deir el Medina strikes we know of occurred in his reign.

"I still think R8 fits better somewhere between R5-R6, and R7-R9. My point was if we can really be sure if Prince Sethyherkhepeshef was actually a son of R3 or of R6"
I agree the evidence is too scanty to be certain. Between V and VI does seem to be a tenable hypothesis, if a son of III.

"But it was Herihor who first approached Wenamun. And we know from the Khonsu Temple that Herihor did act almost as king besides Ramses XI while never taking royal regalia until later."
This seems to be an argument for Herihor being a king, not for Nesbanebdjed. The actual meeting of Herihor with Wenamun seems to be lost.

"Who was Nesubanebdjed to be heard outside of Egypt where Herihor acts as if he was the (dead) Pharaoh's favorite?"
Clearly Nesbanebdjed was the man on the spot at Tanis. If not a king (and it is stated that as king, his residence was at Memphis) then he is the person whom the trading nations of the Levant and eastern Mediterranean dealt with.
This is made clear Wenamun 1.58 "are there not 20 ships in my harbour that are in partnership with Nesbanebdjed?". Whereas Wenamun's orders come from Herihor, not Nesbanebdjed, and Wenamun unwisely gave them to Nesbanebdjed / Tentamun at Tanis but did not get them back. Surely if Nesbanebdjed was the king and Herihor his subordinate, then an instruction from the king would be sufficient and would supersede Herihor's own letter, which could only be a request, not an order, to Nesbanebdjed that Amun's requirements be met. So why ask for Herihor's letter?

"Why not Herihor? It has been my interpretation since before entering this forum that Years 6-15 should belong to Herihor"
This is where the problem lies. In addition to the clear nature of Herihor's kingship/high priestship (and with a vast array of sons he would surely have given the post to one of them, not to a collateral relative) the decoration of the Hypostyle Hall at Karnak shows that Painedjem the 1PA inserted his own image and titles over a previous royal personage. Ad Thijs suggests that this personage is king Painedjem, a different individual, and that he had no need to alter the name, just the titles. Mladjov, sensibly in my view, points out that there is no vestige of king Painedjem in the decor, and that the most likely candidate is in fact king Herihor. If that is the case, then Painedjem (as 1PA) must be after Herihor as king, not just after Herihor as 1PA, and these anonymous regnal years cannot be Herihor's.
In addition a reign of 15+ years would surely give Herihor time to install his sons in positions of power, and to ensure a successor from his own children. This apparently did not happen, unless Nesbanebdjed was indeed his eldest son (a view I find increasingly unlikely).

"The model that Tory proposes, ... is one where Nesubanebdjed succeeds for 6-7 years, Herihor succeeds him in turn and Pinudjem I afterwards. Amunemnisu comes about the same time as Painudjem I"
I think Amunemnisu is a red herring. All the Greek lists (not just "Manetho") place him after Psusennes I and there is no direct evidence of his reign aside from the bowcap with cartouches of him and of Psusennes, in the tomb of the latter. There are no statements of relationship, no inscriptions from the reign. He can be slotted in wherever a logical space is available, but cannot be used to position others.
I have at present no unified theory to offer, but freely concede that my previous offering is badly flawed and that my present thoughts include not one but two missing Ramessides:-
R.XI 81-108 (taking year 27 as real regnal year)
[R.XII] coregent 104-110 (Menkheperre linen of year 6 = c109)
[R.XIII] 110-117 (Herihor 1PA attested years 5-7)
Herihor 117-119 as king
Nesbanebdjed A 119-135 approx as king, formerly prince of Tanis c114, sends daughters to Thebes 119. This means Iset in post as adoratrix/GW by 52 to 119, 67 years, so aged at least 74.
Painedjem A/I king 135-c145 (year 8 attested)
Psibkhaemne I king c140-c191, born c120 early in reign of grandfather Nesbanebdjed

and the contemporary 1PAs
Paiankh about 90-104 dating by the whm mswt
Menkheperre A about 105-110
Herihor about 110-119 and king: at present I have no explanation for the hypostyle hall featuring both R.XI and 1PA Herihor. This is a massive weak spot, which I point out myself before anyone else does.
Painedjem A about 119-145 and king. Maatkare A born about 112, GW 119-c145. Unnamed daughter of Painedjem A, born about 123, adoratrix about 130, GW c145 in succession to her aunt, in lifetime of Henttawy A
Masaharta A about 145-160 (born about 115)
Djedkhonsuiufankh about 160-164 (born about 125)
Menkheperre B about 164-189 (born about 130)
Nesbanebdjed B about 189-193 (born about 155)
Note that redating the whm mswt to year 19 does not affect the above, except to shorten Paiankh's tenure.

"if Herihor succeeded Smendes both in the south and the north, where are his attestations in Tanis, or when did his name fell out of 'Manetho'?"
I think it is likely that there was some sort of coup and damnatio memoriae. I connect the "exiles" brought back by Menkheperre a generation later with the children and supporters of Herihor-the-dynast, forced out of Thebes on Herihor's death. It is possible that any northern attestations died with him, but also possible that he was only recognised in the south.

"I'd feel tempted, putting Smendes I's Year 1 in 1070, to date her tenure from 1062-1020. ... you have Maatkare already born around 1070, whilst I'd have her born during Smendes's reign"
I am unable to find any reliable estimate of her age at death. Smith was misled by the "pregnancy", and some later examiners also. I do however think that if she was obviously elderly, this would have militated against such a conclusion in the first place.
So I see her tenure as relatively short (<30 years?) ages 7-33, roughly speaking. Her immediate successor (name unknown) was a daughter of Painedjem I and Henttawy A, probably born shortly before Painedjem became a king, and installed (as adoratrix) at a similar age (about 7-8) when Maatkare was herself only in her late twenties.

"I interpret GW of pharaoh X as the same as KW of pharaoh X, but this is open to debate. Similarly, the default reading I do of God's Mother without the name of a god as referring to a king"
I agree with you in this usage. I think GW of Amun was for life, whereas other posts could be resigned / forcibly removed, and at this period the GWA was celibate. for Tashaenkheper to have a child would imply she was not GWA, so gods wife of pharaoh must be the same as kings wife. Likewise the gods mother title without name of deity (I think specifically that they were alive when the son became king).

"But Henuttawy is not a GWA, if she were she would have been buried as such, I'd believe, and Maatkare wouldn't have had that title earlier. So Lady of the Two Lands, for Henuttawy A, must have another meaning"
Yes, it does, it means she is the eldest daughter and heir apparent in default of brothers.

"and we should presume she was already a king[s wife] before she married Pinudjem I."
If that is the case the Karnak graffito would have described her as such, not simply as "king's daughter of his flesh, his beloved". Here Nedjemmut is titled the same, and the third sister, Maatkare, gets the highest titles i.e. GWA and Lady of the Two Lands, and her name in cartouche. Unlike the daughter of Henttawy A (who was both adoratrix and GW) Maatkare seems to have stepped straight in to a vacancy as a child. Henttawy was an Adoratrix (of Hathor) and may be entitled to "Lady of the Two Lands" for other reasons.

"what else could Lady of the Two Lands mean if Henuttawy was not a GWA, which she wasn't?"
Perhaps it means heiress designate. Whatever else it means, it is not an equivalent to "king's wife". She is only named with this title on the Coptos stele, and the actual title of "king's wife" seems to be missing or corrupt. I would suggest reading
"Hry.(t) Sps.wt (chief noblewoman), [hm.t] ny-sw.t (king's [wife]) mw.t ny-sw.t (king's mother) nb.t t3.wy (lady of the two lands)" where Ritner reads "superior of royal ladies" interpreting "noble and royal" together.

"If by King's Mother before King's Wife you referring to the one bracelet some Henuttawy offered Psusennes I"
I was, but, as you say, this could be less definitive if for reasons of space only "king's mother" was chosen. If Henttawy A was the mother of Psusennes I (and I do hold this view) then this gift could only have been made fairly early on, as Henttawy died aged about 40, and Psusennes I came to the throne aged at least 19 and probably more (based on minimum age 70 and maximum reign 51 years).

"as we can attest from this burial, D21 royals didn't feel the need to always identifying themselves by their full titularies, or their predecessors, as HPA Smendes B himself gifted Psusennes with a bracelet where he appears as 'HPA Smendes son of Menkheperre', although Menkheperre was a HP as well."
But, strictly speaking, 1PA Nesbanebdjed was not a "royal", only the grandson of one king and nephew of another, and 1PAs don't give full titulary of their predecessors (even the sons of king Painedjem omit the 1PA title from his collection, as king trumps 1PA anyway). The Coptos stele refers to Henttawy as chief of harem of Amun-Re (i.e. wife of the 1PA) but does not call Painedjem 1PA.

Truncated genealogies as we all know dittograph repeated titles, often at the expense of individual titles not carried through to later generations, and a dedicatory inscription "made/dedicated by the 1PARN Nesbanebdjed, son of Menkheperre" actually says nothing about Menkheperre (i.e. does not say he was, or was not, 1PA). I am aware that some have used this to show that this particular Menkheperre was not a 1PA, but I think this is a non-argument.

"The Coptos Stela, however, shows that Henuttawy, at some point, was both wife of a king and mother of a king, but the fact that only one king appears (Pinudjem I) suggests, at least to me, that a) Pinudjem I married his own mother, or b) Henuttawy A had a son who was king at the time but not Pinudjem I's coregent, so they may not have been father and son."
I think we can take it as given that Henttawy is the wife, and not mother, of Painedjem. The absence of her son can be purely due to physical circumstance (he was in the far north) rather than any oblique way of referring to a more complicated relationship.
The straightforward interpretation is that Henttawy was the daughter of Nesbanebdjed and Tentamun, and wife of only Painedjem (she was not married to anyone in the Karnak graffito, and did not live long enough to remarry after Painedjem's death). She was the mother, by the time of her death, of at least one king, one queen, one 1PA, one adoratrix/GW.

"[Iset] would thus have lived at least 78 years, and had a very long tenure for sure... and adding 1 year to these five kings will surely extend Iset's lifetime and tenure"
The dates I presented above follow on from your own with regard to the reigns of D20 up to R.XI start, but even with an "extra" reign I make her 74 minimum. So there is scope for a couple of missing years or part-years. I agree it is a long tenure, and I cannot exclude a later D20 daughter replacing Iset, but on these dates there could have been one lady in post all this time.

"Do you propose Smendes coming in between R11 and Herihor, or Smendes and Herihor coming at the same time?"
Without proposing a third unknown king, I have had to revise my proposals so that Herihor (as king) precedes Nesbanebdjed. They might start at the same time, but in that case I would have to extend the reign length of Painedjem I and date the accession of Psibkhaemne a few years later also.

"I do note that only the three first princes plus the 18th have more titles than just King's Bodily sons"
The 18th is an interloper, a son of Painedjem. The first, Ankhefenmut, seems to appear in various guises: under Herihor he is king's son, Ch. Steward of Amun; under Painedjem A (?) he is grouped as a son of Paiankh, chief steward, but not a king's son; in the tomb of Psusennes he is the kings son Ramesses-Ankhefenmut (if all these are the same person).

"I'd dare to speculate this Nodjmet might be the same woman as the wife of Herihor."
I think you are amalgamating two different names. nDm.t (Nedjemet) is the lady or ladies associated with Herihor and Paiankh. nDm.Mwt (Nedjemmut) is the middle kings daughter between Henttawy A and Maatkare A.
The identity and arrangement of the two or more ladies called Nedjemet remains unclear.

"In my model, Herihor wasn't much older than 45 when he died: he could totally have fathered a girl and have the time to enthrone her as GWA."
Yes, but I was defending my model, not yours.

"Maybe to be a princess was not mandatory, but who else had the ways to become the high-priestess of Amun in a time when the line between monarchy and priesthood was more tenuous than ever"
It is a problem. The GW Henttawy is not titled king's daughter, but we have only ushabti fragments to attest to her existence, and she may not even belong to this dynasty. The {Mother of the GW of Amun}{Isetemkhebi} (two separate cartouches) from a single brick at Higazeh may be a modern misreading of "GW of Amun {Isetemkhebi}{Merytmut}" for example (as then a dual cartouche would hold no mystery).

"I'd stick to identifying this Isetemkheb with the wife of HP Menkheperre, whom we know exercised eponym and claimed some royal regalia"
Maybe so but in that case I don't think the daughter would be Henttawy D, but another anonymous priestess, as Henttawy wife of Nesbanebdjed B is definitely the daughter of Isetemkheb. There would still be a requirement for at least one more GW of this dynasty, as there may be 120-150 years from the death of Menkheperre to the attestation of the GW Karomat.



  • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Jaime O, Sat Mar 11 14:06
    Hi Kim, Thank you for the reply. "Please do. I look forward to it, if you have the time." It won't be nothing new or inventive. As soon as I can get some more time and space, I'll type something. "I... more
    • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII? — Kim Sargerson, Tue Mar 14 18:38
      • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Jaime O, Wed Mar 22 09:33
        Hi Kim, forgive me for the extent of the last reply. This one might not be very different, so I apologize in advance. I wrote: "And we know from the Khonsu Temple that Herihor did act almost as king... more
        • Re: Ramses XII, and early Dyn 21Kim Sargerson, Thu Mar 23 13:26
          Hi Jaime You wrote "Exactly, which is why I do see Smendes coming between Ramses XI and Herihor as resolution to some problems, but may only be desirable until one comes up with something new." This... more
          • Herihor the HPA-kingTory, Mon Mar 27 23:48
            Hi all, The oracle of Herihor (Oracular Decree of High Priest Herihor, OIP3, p. 15, Plate 132) makes it clear that he was HPA for 30 years. 10 years as HPA had already elapsed when the oracle was... more
            • Early 21st DynastyJaime O, Wed Mar 29 08:43
              Hi Kim and Tory Thank you for the replies. Kim: I do not think there is enough evidence to place Nesbanebdjed the king before or after Herihor the king. However, it still leaves a gap i.e. who was... more
              • Early 21st DynastyJaime O, Thu Mar 30 13:45
                There is an error in my previous tables, allow me to correct (and revise Menkheperre Bs tenure, presuming his Year 48 might be an error for something else): KINGS: - Ramses XI, 0-35 - Ramses XII,... more
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