Jaime O
Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?
Wed Mar 22, 2017 09:33
95.95.208.52

Hi Kim,

forgive me for the extent of the last reply. This one might not be very different, so I apologize in advance.

I wrote: "And we know from the Khonsu Temple that Herihor did act almost as king besides Ramses XI while never taking royal regalia until later."

You wrote: "This seems to be an argument for Herihor being a king, not for Nesbanebdjed."

Exactly, which is why I do see Smendes coming between Ramses XI and Herihor as resolution to some problems, but may only be desirable until one comes up with something new.

You wrote: "Clearly Nesbanebdjed was the man on the spot at Tanis. [...] Surely if Nesbanebdjed was the king and Herihor his subordinate, then an instruction from the king would be sufficient and would supersede Herihor's own letter, which could only be a request, not an order, to Nesbanebdjed that Amun's requirements be met. So why ask for Herihor's letter?"

I've been thinking about this. Truth is, Wenamun seems to understand Nesubanebdjed as superior to Herihor, as the former is mentioned at least once before the latter and right below the latter. But yes, why ask Herihor's letter if Nesubanebdjed's word was enough as Pharaoh? Read more below.

I wrote: "It has been my interpretation since before entering this forum that Years 6-15 should belong to Herihor"

You said: "This is where the problem lies. In addition to the clear nature of Herihor's kingship/high priestship [...] the decoration of the Hypostyle Hall at Karnak shows that Painedjem the 1PA inserted his own image and titles over a previous royal personage. (...) Mladjov, (...), points out that there is no vestige of king Painedjem in the decor, and that the most likely candidate is in fact king Herihor. If that is the case, then Painedjem (as 1PA) must be after Herihor as king, not just after Herihor as 1PA, and these anonymous regnal years cannot be Herihor's."

If the royal personage is King Herihor, then HPA Pinudjem should come after him, not before, in order to modify what is left of a kingly predecessor and add his own priestly and (afterwards) royal regalia. This scenario, however, asks for an intervening king between Herihor and Pinudjem, which extends the latter's pontificate long enough in order to insert his own image into a dead king's.

On you attempt at giving dates to individuals: thank you for sharing. You postulate a Ramses XIII in order to account for a Year 6 Menkheperre. I prefer to assign this one Pre-Whm Mswt Ramses XI.

You wrote: "I think it is likely that there was some sort of coup and damnatio memoriae."

Yes, Herihor might be missing from Tanis because of a damnatio memoriae or something, but if he was sole ruler of the country one needs to ask where did 'Manetho' have him? And Pinudjem I? Pinudjem I is clearly attested in the north.

On Henuttawy: I can accept Lady of the Two Lands might be close to heir-presumptive in females (?), but she keeps this title even by Pinudjem I's side. This interpretation, nevertheless, would bring another interpretation to the chalice found at Psusennes I's tomb, where she appears as Lady of the Two Lands and Greatest among the Concubines of Amun while Pinudjem is a mere HP son of Payankh. It may also explain Pinudjem I carrying the title Iry-pat. Maybe he was made crown-prince under his father-in-law as husband of his eldest daughter?

You wrote: "Without proposing a third unknown king, I have had to revise my proposals so that Herihor (as king) precedes Nesbanebdjed. They might start at the same time, but in that case I would have to extend the reign length of Painedjem I and date the accession of Psibkhaemne a few years later also."

I'd expect to have something more substantial on coregencies during the 20th Dynasty before jumping on that wagon and postulate a Ramses XIII.

Okay, here's some food for thought. As I wrote above, it seems a third king in between Herihor and Pinudjem. We also know there was a pharaoh in the land during the time the Wenamun's Report is written about, we can't be sure who he was. After thinking a while, I do concede that instead of taking away from dead kings their royal regalia, whoever wrote the Report omitted the one true pharaoh, and Wenamun numbered Smendes before Herihor and after Amun in conversation with the king of Byblos because the name of the "governor" of Tanis, who had ships of his own and was certainly not by coincidence was centered in the Delta, was more familiar to Byblos than anything else. Maybe in the mind of the author, Wenamun mentioned a king between Amun and Smendes, but the author decided to omit any mention of him, because, after all, Amun was lord above anyone and anything.

Although I do like your experimental reconstruction, it still leaves holes to fill. My bet would be that after all, there was a King Ramses XII for about 6-7 years after Ramses XI. Mladjov's case needs something more substantial, but works on interesting premises. I would also propose Herihor succeeding RXII for 14-15 years, and Smendes I afterwards. I was at first reluctant to find Manetho's entry "Smendes, for 26 years" as an error for [6] years or some sort of era, or a period of time. I don't struggle as much with the last idea anymore: I think it's possible '26 years' actually allots two reign lengths in one, similar to 'Thuoris for 7 years', which contains both Siptah's reign plus Tausret's last year. It might include both Smendes and Pinudjem I, probably because the latter was more southern than anything else. The order of things I experimentally propose is this:

1st - Ramses XI succeeds Ramses X, might be identical to Vizier Khaemwaset. Amenhotep is HPA at the time
2nd - Early in the reign, Amenhotep is oppressed and restored to power. This is when Paiankh first becomes visible under Ramses XI
3rd - Amenhotep dies about Year 6: this is the first appearance of HPA Menkheperre (A), who is likelier than not a son of Amenhotep and husband to Nodjmet, his sister (at least by Herher). The two go on to have Herihor and Isetemkheb A together
4th - Whm Mswt in Year 9 introduces a new count. Every regal year below 9 will be correctly assigned the 'Whm Mswt' mention
5th - Menkheperre A dies about Year 7 Whm Mswt: Herihor is too young, so this is when Paiankh is made HPA (probably because Pharaoh needed a mature soldier close to the south) and marries Nodjmet. Pinudjem I and Nodjmet B will be born in a few years. Paiankh dies some years later, about Year 15: Herihor succeeds and Pinudjem I is too young
6th - Ramses XI and is succeeded by a Ramses XII: they might have been father and son, and Ramses might be a loyalty name as no other name is fixed to the nomen. RXII reigns for about 7 years, during which the narrative of Wenamun is set and Herihor in bandages dated to Years 6 and 7
7th - Herihor succeeds R12 and reigns for some 15 years and is succeeded by the old Smendes. Smendes reigns for some 5 years and is succeeded by Pinudjem I, who reigns for about 24. It took 26 years from Smendes' ascension until Psusennes I could be crowned king.

I arbitrarily assign 5 years to Smendes and keep Years 6-15 under which Pinudjem I orders reburials as belonging to Herihor. This is because there is a need to attribute Years [1-5] from the Banishment Stele to someone: Smendes doesn't quite fit the bill and the gap must be smaller. Plus, we need Pinudjem I to overlap Psusennes I. So, to have Psusennes I ascend about Year 21-22 of Pinudjem I seems to fit neatly. A bigger overlap between the two (which will result if we give Smendes c15 years) might mean that the rebels where only forgiven under Psusennes I's successor, but we know Menkheperre was likelier than not dead by the time. For now I'll have Amunemnisu as successor of Psusennes I but I'll revise evidences later.

- Ramses XI, 0-35
- Whm Mswt, 8-35
- Ramses XII, 35-42
- Herihor, 42-57 (born about c8)*
- Smendes, 57-62 (born about c10)**
- Pinudjem I, 62-86 (born about c18)
- Psusennes I, 83-133 (born about c58)
- Amunemnisu, 133-137 (born about c81)
- Amenemope, 137-150 (born about c83)
- Osorkon the Elder, 150-156?
- Psinaches = Shoshenq B?, 156-165
- Psusennes II = HPA Psusennes, 165-179
* Isetemkheb A = B is born about c10
** Henuttawy A is born about c35

On the HPAs, a like a scenario like Tory has where a priest of Amun in the north overlaps another one in the south. This at least accounts for Menkheperre's Year 48, and we need him to live that long in priesthood and to die before Psusennes I does. I'd assume a scenario where at ascension, Pinudjem I retains the title of HPA. It is only after Year 8 that he makes Djedkhonsuefankh (arguably his oldest son) the First Prophet of Amun: Djedkhonsuefankh dies shortly after and Masaharta succeeds him as the oldest surviving son, Menkheperre is also made HPA at the same time in the North.

- Amenhotep, 0-6 (born about c-43)
- Menkheperre A, 6-14 (born about c-18)
- Piankh, 14-22 (born about c-15)
- Herihor, 22-42
- Pinudjem I, 42-c76
- Djedkhonsuefankh, c76-c77 (born about c34)
- Masaharta, 77-c80/c86 (born about c40)
- Menkheperre B, 77-126 (born about c62)
- Nesubanebdjed B, 126-c140 (born about c92)
- Pinudjem IIa*, c140-c142 (born about c85)
- Pinudjem IIb, c142-c165 (born about c110)
* Son of King Psusennes

You wrote: "I think you are amalgamating two different names. nDm.t (Nedjemet) is the lady or ladies associated with Herihor and Paiankh. nDm.Mwt (Nedjemmut) is the middle kings daughter between Henttawy A and Maatkare A."

Yes, my bad. Thank you for correcting this. In my rapid wish to identify as much people as possible so to make something out of this mess of names and titles, I totally overlooked the difference between Nojdmet and Nedjemmut.

"The {Mother of the GW of Amun}{Isetemkhebi} (two separate cartouches) from a single brick at Higazeh may be a modern misreading of "GW of Amun {Isetemkhebi}{Merytmut}" for example (as then a dual cartouche would hold no mystery)."

Interesting. Maybe the King's Daughter Isetemkheb attested in Psusennes I's burial could have something to do with this might have something to do with this. I can't remember right now, but wasn't this king's daughter involved with the cult of Khonsu?

Kind regards,
Jaime

  • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII?Kim Sargerson, Tue Mar 14 18:38
    Hi Jaime "one needs to take account some of the genealogies that compose the backbone of the dynasty" As far as I can tell, only the Deir el Medina foremen seem to span the dynasty, and the... more
    • Re: Ramses XII = Ramses VIII? — Jaime O, Wed Mar 22 09:33
      • Re: Ramses XII, and early Dyn 21Kim Sargerson, Thu Mar 23 13:26
        Hi Jaime You wrote "Exactly, which is why I do see Smendes coming between Ramses XI and Herihor as resolution to some problems, but may only be desirable until one comes up with something new." This... more
        • Herihor the HPA-kingTory, Mon Mar 27 23:48
          Hi all, The oracle of Herihor (Oracular Decree of High Priest Herihor, OIP3, p. 15, Plate 132) makes it clear that he was HPA for 30 years. 10 years as HPA had already elapsed when the oracle was... more
          • Early 21st DynastyJaime O, Wed Mar 29 08:43
            Hi Kim and Tory Thank you for the replies. Kim: I do not think there is enough evidence to place Nesbanebdjed the king before or after Herihor the king. However, it still leaves a gap i.e. who was... more
            • Early 21st DynastyJaime O, Thu Mar 30 13:45
              There is an error in my previous tables, allow me to correct (and revise Menkheperre Bs tenure, presuming his Year 48 might be an error for something else): KINGS: - Ramses XI, 0-35 - Ramses XII,... more
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