Jaime O
Early 21st Dynasty
Wed Mar 29, 2017 08:43
95.95.208.52

Hi Kim and Tory

Thank you for the replies.

Kim:

“I do not think there is enough evidence to place Nesbanebdjed the king before or after Herihor the king. However, it still leaves a gap i.e. who was the king whose years 6-15 (and possibly year 1, although this may be his own as king) recorded under Painedjem A as 1PA.”

Herihor is my candidate. However, I can also envisage a scenario like yours where these years belong to Nesubanebdjed, and Herihor either precedes him or overlaps him. On Herihor being a king-priest, I don’t see a problem: he could have retained the title while Pinudjem I had it and executed the role of priest. I believe the roles of King and First Prophet couldn’t overlap, so there would be a need of a pratical 1PA. In a scenario where Herihor and Nesubanebdjed shortly overlap, maybe the latter could been king and priest at the same time during a short reign. Maybe it would not be a coincidence that Pinudjem I only appears after a Year 6.

On the “World Chronology”: I don’t see how it can be helpful. I’m a bit reticent about it’s potential: things such as Smendes for 48 years, [A]mo[ses] for 14 and Psasomes for 51 might just be consequentes of a very mistaken scribe or a very damaged source. In any case, ‘48 years’ seems to be an error for something else (5? 15? 26?), while 14 for Amunmenisu and 51 for Psusennes appear to me as errors for [4] and [4]1, as we can find in Eusebius.

“Assuming that both men became kings at some point, and the actual Report was composed after both were safely dead, who would you place in the superior position - the one who reigned first, or the one whose descendants were still around to look over your shoulder?”

Good point.

“I do not see this as an objection. Painedjem as 1PA is only attested in unattributed regnal years, which Kitchen has arranged into a single sequence 6-15 without showing any chronological contradictions (although worth examining in detail).”

It was not an objection. I just reasserted what you said. I do now accept that Pinudjem I likelier than not did not succeeded Herihor directly, although we can’t be sure if the said royal personage was not Smendes (but it would seem odd that the son-in-law usurped the image of the man from whom his power presumably came)

I see you didn’t understand what my previous position was. I was in agreement with Tory there. I now see that there was probably a king in between Herihor and Pinudjem I. I never had Psusennes I before Pinudjem I as pharaoh. See more below. Your own suggestion, for instance, seems to deal well with some factoids, but when do you have the Banishment Stela? Unde Psusennes I? To whom does the date following Year 25 belong?

“The linen made by Menkheperre was used in this rewrap, and cannot have been 34 years old at the time of use. This linen was also dated to a year 6. There is no possible year 6 within the likely timeframe (10 years) for use of high quality stored linen, without another king intervening. It cannot reasonably be the same year 6 as Herihor's command to osirify, because of the Wenamun Report which places Herihor already in office by year 5. You see the problem.”

Yes, unfortanetely I see the problem and I pointed this out before.

“There is no evidence of Nesbanebdjed the king, at Tanis. The solitary undated royal inscription of Hedjkheperre Nesbanebdjed makes it clear that this king's royal residence was Memphis, not Tanis.”

Yes, but he could have been crowned in Tanis before moving to Memphis, where the great pharaohs of the past spent their days (I’m thinking about the Thutmosids down to Ramses II). I won’t debate this point, nevertheless, as the cities given by Manetho might have another meaning. If ‘Manetho’ was not the priest he was said to be (I’m thinking about Tory here, who concedes ‘Manetho’ was the product of an Hellenized priest during the time of Emperor Augustus), then we can be open to alternative explanations for the cities and the dynasties in the epitome.

“I agree. I also have two places where Mladjov's Ramesses might fit, not just one. I am actually growing less comfortable with "perfect fit" chronologies as I study more and more; my chronology of Dyn 22 for example has absolutely no "wiggle room" back to 919 as the start of Sheshonq I.”

Interesting. Where else would you fit a 12th Ramses? I agree that perfect fit chronologies might be uncomfortable to some extend. Probably because we expect to reconstruct ancient history the way we’ve re-read time since Classical Antiquity: to know historical personages, their names and acquaintances, family and motivations will help any historian to reconstruct history. The same can’t be expected about Ancient Egypt.

“The genealogy you suggest does explain the two Nedjemets pretty well, but does not explain how Hrere can be a king's mother unless she is also the mother of R.XI by a previous marriage, so that R.XI would be suppressing his own stepfather...”

My bad here. I forgot to say that I see this said king as Nesubanebdjed. I see Hrere married before Amenhotep to the upper class, and by her first husband she had Nesubanebdjed. I postulate an early marriage because we don’t have any evidence that Nesubanebdjed was ever HPA, so likelier than not either Amenhotep was not his father or he had an older brother. Or maybe Ramses XI just came in between the succession in times of internal crises: this might be why Payankh stepped into the picture later. Menkheperre A might have been an older brother of Nesubanebdjed and Nodjmet, and thus he would be married to his own sister in my model, but this particular detail is speculation; Nesubanebdjed would be the youngest of the three and there would be no need for an early marriage for Hrere.

“I do not see how Amunemipet merits a reign of 13 years.”

I was thinking about that one linen made by Pinudjem son of Menkheperre under Amenemope in Year [+]3.

“In my view Painedjem B is in office as 1PA through 3 or 4 short reigns from the death of Nesbanebdjed B, his older brother, to his own death in a year 10, probably of Siamun. There are a number of datelines from his pontificate, none of which exceed year 10. There are no datelines at all from Nesbanebdjed B, and his early (and presumably sudden) demise left Painedjem B to settle some property on his widow and unmarried daughter (which in turn leads me to believe that Nesbanebdjed was only about 30-35 when he died, and that this was very soon after Psusennes I).”

I can’t object nothing here, as we appear to have a similar view of the period at this point (although I’d prefer a longer reign for Osorkon the Elder overlapping the early years of Siamun but that’s another topic). You seem to be missing Pinudjem son of King Psusennes. I previously thought of having this HP under Psusennes II, at the end of D21, but some months ago, as I showed on a conversation with Tory in a thread I started, I’ve found this paper which shows amulets and pendants which depict HP Pinudjem SOKP under Amenemope: http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/Catalogue_GI_Cerny_MSS_17.125.1-17_by_Prada.pdf
With all of this said, it’s possible that HPA Smendes exercised priesthood from Year 49/[50] of Psusennes into Year 2 of Amenemope, then died and the Pharaoh had his brother, Pinudjem IIa, as sucessor, however, he died shortly after, about Year 4, and the priesthood eventually came to Pinudjem IIb, youngest brother of Smendes.

- During Psusennes I – HPA Menkheperre
- Last years of Ps. I – HPA Nesubanebdjed
- Early years of Amen. – HPA Nesubanebdjed, then Pinudjem IIa, then Pinudjem IIb

On Menkheperre’s Year 48: I’ve seriously thought of the possibility of the year-date being an error, and that the king by accident was ommited. Do we have a similar example from this period? Whatever the case, I’d have him exceeding a career of 40 years, but probably dying some 45 years after ascension if Year 48 is assumed to be an error for another king (Psusennes I). Well, I suppose it could be quite possible, at least it would save us the need to postulate a scenario where Menkheperre started to exercise eponym out of the blue and then stopped, as Year 49 attested at Karnak is clearly not his but he is present.

“She is attested as a king's daughter and GM of Khonsu. It is generally assumed that she is a daughter of Psusennes I, but given that the gravegoods could span a 50 year period (from Painedjem I as mere 1PA, to his grandson Nesbanebdjed B as 1PA) and that the priestly title is borne by other members of the Theban family, she might be a daughter of Painedjem I”

Mut was the mother of Khonsu, so maybe GM of Khonsu could be in any way related to the GWA post? I’m just speculating of course, but I wouldn’t be impressed had this Isetemkheb become a GWA. I can’t remember in what specific artifact she appears, but I do remember she appears alongside Psusennes, so had she been daughter of Pinudjem I, we would expect her to carry the title King’s Sister.

“Isetemkheb C cannot however be made to = B, as the latter is daughter of 1PA at a time when Painedjem is already a king. B could however be made into D, as many have done, as both are associated with the Min, Horus and Isis triad. I am doubtful, as I think D was an infant when Masaharta died.”

Yes, my bad. Isetemkheb B seems to fit better as daughter of Masaharta. About Isetemkheb A: is she ever attested beside Pinudjem son of Payankh? If not, then it’s possible she is identical to Isetemkheb D, and thus the same wife of Pinudjem IIb (son of Menkheperre). AFAIK, Isetemkheb D could even be identified with Isetemkheb E, the daughter of Smendes and Henuttawy, and would thus be niece of her husband. This is a stretch, of course.

I’ve tried to reinstate my scenario by giving Smendes 15 years of reign, like you have. However, this forces me to have a king between Pinudjem I and Psusennes I, because allowing 15 years to Smendes will not allow Pinudjem I’s Year 25 to follow anywhere near Years [1-5] of Psusennes I. In the Wikipedia article, it says the year-date can be anywhere between 1-5, 10, 11 or 20. In theory, all these dates are possible. However, assuming Manetho’s “Smendes for 26 years” actually mixed the reign lenghts of both Smendes and Pinudjem, then Year 25 would fall about Year 14 of Psusennes, or something. The only way I can safe my proposal is to have Amunemnisu as the first coregent and predecessor to Psusennes I. If so, Year 25 will fall just before Year 11.

This is an alternative of my proposal:

KINGS:
- Ramses XI, 0-35
- Ramses XII, 35-42
- Herihor, 42-47
- Nesubanedjed, 42-57
- Pinudjem I, 57-81
- Amunemnisu, 68-72
- Psusennes I, 72-111
- Amenemope, 111-120/124

PRIESTS:
- Amenhotep, 0-6
- Menkheperre A, 6-13
- Payankh, 13-21
- Herihor, 21-47
- Pinudjem I, 47-c67
- Psusennes I, c67-72
- Djedkhonsuefankh, 72
- Masaharta, 72-c76
- Menkheperre B, c76-c110
- Nesubanebdjed II, c110-c112
- Pinudjem IIa, c112-c113
- Pinudjem IIb, c113 until Siamun

This is experimental.

Tory:

I appreciate you reinstate the existence of the Oracle of Herihor. This is no problem to my models, where Herihor usually has a career of over 25 years. But couldn’t the 30 years actually be in antecipation of such years? 30 is a magical number, and the Oracle is so broken that it’s hard to fully interpret it.

Kind regards to all,
Jaime

  • Herihor the HPA-kingTory, Mon Mar 27 23:48
    Hi all, The oracle of Herihor (Oracular Decree of High Priest Herihor, OIP3, p. 15, Plate 132) makes it clear that he was HPA for 30 years. 10 years as HPA had already elapsed when the oracle was... more
    • Early 21st Dynasty — Jaime O, Wed Mar 29 08:43
      • Early 21st DynastyJaime O, Thu Mar 30 13:45
        There is an error in my previous tables, allow me to correct (and revise Menkheperre B’s tenure, presuming his Year 48 might be an error for something else): KINGS: - Ramses XI, 0-35 - Ramses XII,... more
Click here to receive daily updates