Jon Smyth
Re: Solar eclipse of 1207 BC helps to date pharaohs
Sat Nov 11, 2017 15:09
184.145.61.173

Certainly anachronisms exist, but anachronisms are there to make the story clearer for the intended audience. The use of anachronisms is not an indication the story is wrong, or false. And, we should not use the suggestion of possible anachronisms to avoid addressing points of conflict in a preferred theory.

The city Heshbon is one, archaeologically it does not appear to have existed in the Late Bronze, so some may ask how can the Israelites have lived there for 300 years if the city did not exist?
Yet, what other way would the later scribe have to identify the region where they camped, if not by naming a city which now stands on the site?

The same argument can be made for the “land of Ramesses”, the intended audience would instantly recognise the region by that later name, as opposed to “some part of the Egyptian desert”. Presumably, the “land of Ramesses” was considerably larger than the city of Avaris.

We have the same problem with the Philistines, mention of them at the time of Abraham is viewed as an anachronism. Yet, Ram. III specifically recorded their alliance with the Libyans in his Year 5, and that they live in towns & had “groves”. So the Peleset/Philistines were a settled people before they are supposed to have “arrived” with those so-called Sea Peoples.
If we can determine they were present before the 8th year of Ram. III, then their presumed "arrival" in yr 8, is false. And we must consider alternatives.

The issue here though is not just one of an isolated case of the mention of Hittites, which may or may not be an anachronism. The relevant lines include allies of these Hittites, like the Amorites (being the Amor of Egyptian texts), and the Hivites (being Que/Huwe/Ahhiya = part of classical Cilicia), and the supposedly illusive Girgashites.
This name appears to have been subject to phonetic distortion.

Some people say Makkadah, others say Megiddo. Some say Gasgans, others say Kashka. We used to write, “the land of Nuges”, now we write “the land of Nukish”
The “G” and the “K” have readily been interchangeable throughout several eastern languages, just like the R/L.
In Girgashite we seem to have, not Kirkashite but Kelkeshite = the Kelekesh.
Another allie of the Hittites who are mentioned in the great alliance against Ram. II at Kadesh.

Kelekesh is the mountainous western region of Cilicia = Hilakku. (aka Girgashite)
The eastern plains is Akku = Que. (aka Hivite)
Both politically Hittite in the Empire & post empire periods.
The last known king of Amor (the Amorites) was the son-in-law of the Hittite king, so again, another allie of those Hittites.
A simple claim for potential anachronism is futile when so many known political entities are easily recognisible as allied with those intrusive Hittites.

None of the above is accounted for in the 18th dynasty. Not at the time of Thutmosis III, and not in the Amarna Period. Only at the end of the 19th/early 20th do we see such political alliances in evidence in the inscriptional record.

Why you lean so much on Clement of Alexandria is a question. I will not deny he could count as well as anyone today, but why should we believe he had any more reliable information than we find today? These events preceded him by at least a thousand years, you may say more. So why would he have any better insight than say Josephus, or any other late period Biblical commentator?








  • Re: Solar eclipse of 1207 BC helps to date pharaohs Marianne Luban, Sat Nov 4 13:00
    Marianne Luban writes: "However, the Hornet was none other than Thutmose III. He was the one who had weakened the Canaanite rulers to the point where others, too, could overrun their territories, if... more
    • Re: Solar eclipse of 1207 BC helps to date pharaohs — Jon Smyth, Sat Nov 11 15:09
    • Marianne Luban writes: "All had been killed by the Apiru--and they can be none other than the "Hebrews", who have no other etymology for their own designation." No argument on the Apiru=Hebrew... more
      • Re: Solar eclipse of 1207 BC helps to date pharaohs Marianne Luban, Sat Nov 4 22:52
        Marianne Luban writes: "You can't have the Book of Exodus at the time of Ramesses III, Jon. You are obliged to follow the math of the Bible, at least within some reasonable time frame, when you talk... more
        • Marianne Luban wrote: "It's in the Book of Exodus. Exodus 23:28-30: “I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way. 29 But I will not drive them... more
          • Jon Smyth wrote: Finally, in Joshua 24:11, we read: "And ye went over Jordan, and came unto Jericho: and the men of Jericho fought against you, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites,... more
            • Marianne. Read the 4th line of the first book of Joshua. "From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea... more
            • Re: Solar eclipse of 1207 BC helps to date PharoahsRobert Killian, Mon Nov 6 02:01
              Here, I agree with Anonymous,---AND: "The Two Hornet's" timeline would fit well with Exodus in 2448, 1313CJ/BCE, (Jewish) + 131yrs = 1444BCE ('Actual') in the 35th Year of Thutmose III, just 14yrs... more
              • Far too early Robert, Mittani was still in control of northern Syria. There were no Hittites, nor any Akhuwa/Huwe (Hivites), so far south until after the fall of Mitanni, and after the fall of the... more
                • My apologies, the last line should read: If anyone chooses to identify a historical synchronism here, it can only be in the 20th Dyn., at the Late Bronze/Iron I transition. Jon S.
          • Re: Solar eclipse of 1207 BC helps to date pharaohsMarianne Luban, Sun Nov 5 11:38
            Marianne Luban wrote: "It's in the Book of Exodus. Exodus 23:28-30: “I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way. 29 But I will not drive them... more
            • Jon wrote: "Finally, in Joshua 24:11, we read: "And ye went over Jordan, and came unto Jericho: and the men of Jericho fought against you, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and... more
Click here to receive daily updates