Toby Anderson
Re: Rohl and the Exodus
Wed May 9, 2018 23:12
2600:8801:901:4610:9dba:5fed:ac76:9989

Hello Jaime

Well, here's a partial reply.... more to come later...

Jaime wrote:
On the Israel Stele: I’m sure you’ll find some scholarly opinion that argues that ‘Israel’ here stands for a group of people. Neither a kingdom, nor a nation. This view is based on the reading of hieroglyphs, which unfortunately I can’t. I also can’t seem to tell what “laid to waste” means in this new perspective. If (dates are for illustration only) we assume that Ramses II invaded Jerusalem in 925, we should expect him to become king around 932. This in turn would place the beginning of Merneptah’s reign around 865. This corresponds to the first half of the reigns of Ahab and Jehoshaphat. Israel can’t be described as ‘laid in waste’. But I don’t want to build a straw man here. Do you have access to Rohl’s books or articles? I’ve read many articles by him and about his chronology online but haven’t read him on this.

Toby replies:
There is internal (Israel Stele) and external evidence.

A. INTERNAL EVIDENCE:

"Line 26
The princes are prostrate saying: "Shalom!" Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head Tjehenu is vanquished, Khatti at peace,Canaan
Line 27
is captive with all woe, Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized,Yanoam made nonexistent;Israel is wasted, bare of seed, Khor is become a widow for Egypt. All who roamed have been subdued."

1. 1st, note that the nomadic people are being contrasted to the non-nomadic people (including Israel).

the nomads: 'All who roamed have been subdued'
------contrasted with -----
the NON-NOMADS: Askelon (conquered), Gezer (seized), Yanoam (non-existance), Israel (wasted), Khor (Syria... a widow).

2. 2nd, consider this statement about the heiroglyphics:
" "‘Israel’ as described in this inscription is an entity at least on a par with the city-states Ashkelon, Gezer and Yanoam, but the term has the ‘people’ determinative, indicating that it is a rural or tribal entity, not a state with a city as its centre. (In Egyptian hieroglyphic script, ‘determinatives’ are signs indicating the category to which a particular entity belongs.) If Merneptah’s campaign as described in this inscription is mapped out, the most likely location for the ‘Israel’ referred to here is in the central hill country. In other words, the ‘Israel’ described in this inscription is similar in nature and extent to Israel as described at the end of Joshua or in the Song of Deborah (Judg. 5). Note the boastful rhetoric of the inscription: so far from being without ‘seed’, Israel was to continue in the land for many centuries! Neither Joshua nor Judges mentions a clash with Egyptians." (The book of Joshua: largely fiction?, Exploring the Old Testament: The Histories, Philip Satterthwaite, Gordon McConville, Vol. 2, p65, 2007 AD)"

EXTERNAL EVIDENCE

Basically Merneptah inscribed a poem on the backside of a stele which was originally created by 1 of his predecessors (Amenhotep III). '...A duplicate copy of this text was written on a stela erected in the temple of Karnak. Furthermore, a long prose account of the Libyan war (not translated here) was inscribed on the inside of the eastern wall that connects the central part of the Karnak temple with Pylon No. VII." (The Poetical Stela of Merneptah, Ancient Egyptian literature, Miriam Lichtheim, volume II, p73, 1973. He then made some additions to the inscriptions (reliefs) already on this Karnak (Mortuary) temple.... The end result, was that all around this temple were pictures of battles, some accompanied by heiroglyphics. Merneptah's poem basically described these reliefs of not only his exploits, but also those of his predecessors including ramesses II and Amenhotep III. Thus, there was a one-to-one synchronism between those nations mentioned in his stele ----with---- those pictorial reliefs on the walls of the Karnak Mortuary temple. Hence the nation Israel had it's own pictorial relief as well which gives confirmation and additional data regarding the nation of Israel. The relief shows that Israel had chariots. Chariots were first introduced to Israel by David and Solomon. You can see a photograph of this Israelie relief here:

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/08/13/The-Bible-According-to-Karnak.aspx

And this is the text to go along with it.


"Along the secondary north-south axis of Karnak Temple is a relief carved by Merenptah (1212–1202 BC) that apparently corresponds to the famous stele found in his mortuary temple on the west bank (Byers 2004). In an area between the Hypostyle Hall and the seventh pylon at Karnak Temple, known as the Cour de la Cachette, Merenptah depicted military exploits from his Canaanite campaign in 1210 BC. This wall, originally about 49 m (160 ft) long and 9 m (30 ft) high, was constructed by Ramesses II and already contained the text of his Battle of Kadesh (1275 BC) peace treaty with the Hittites. Merenptah usurped space on both sides of the treaty text to illustrate his Canaanite campaign. Interestingly, he did the same thing with the stele on which is recorded in text form this same military action. After demolishing Pharaoh Amenhotep III’s mortuary temple to build his own, Merenptah appropriated and reused the reverse side of a 3 m (10 ft) tall stone monument originally carved by Amenhotep III. In the Karnak Temple, three cities are depicted being conquered by the Pharaoh. One of them, Ashkelon, is named and apparently the other two are Gezer and Yenoam, as described in Merenptah’s stele. The fourth scene, above and to the right of Ramesses’ peace treaty, did not depict a city but a people group being defeated—also described in the stele. They appear as a confusing jumble of defeated soldiers beneath the horses of Merenptah’s chariot. Like the people in the conquered cities, these soldiers wear ankle-length garments, suggesting they inhabit the same region. Apparently these soldiers were the fourth defeated enemy in Merenptah’s Canaan campaign—Israel—just as recorded in the Merenptah Stele. That makes this the earliest visual portrayal of Israelites ever discovered. The next time Israelites are visually depicted on a relief comes ca. 370 years later on an Assyrian obelisk (Maier 2004:91). Michael Luddeni"


Toby wrote: “(…) the Pharaoh who raised Moses was likely Sobekhotep IV (who is also Kha-nefe-re. Artapanus, 3rd or 2nd century BCE, who is quoted by others, wrote that this Pharoah in Greek is called Khe-noph-res) and that the Pharoah of the Exodus was likely Dudimose”

Jaime wrote:
Any attempt at identifying the Pharaoh of the Exodus seems sterile to me. The Book of Exodus couldn’t be any more obsolete in identifying this king or his predecessor were. I don’t think later authors such as Artapanus and Josephus knew more either. Any attempt at naming those two monarchs relies solely on ancient Egyptian kings lists and mathematics, which is exactly what later authors such as Artapanus and Josephus did. It’s exactly what we still do to this very day.

Toby replied:
I only partially agree. The few pharaoh's mentioned by name in the Bible are not much help. On the other hand, if we were to throw out all king's lists, our Assyrian chronology would be pretty sterile itself. A key Pharaoh list, used by Rohl, in this regard (the Exodus) was in a papyrus attributed to Ramsesses himself, per wiki: 'The Turin King List, also known as the Turin Royal Canon, is an ancient Egyptian hieratic papyrus thought to date from the reign of Pharaoh Ramesses II'

Best wishes to you,
Toby

  • Rohl and the ExodusJaime O, Wed May 9 13:10
    Hello Toby I have yet to see Rohl’s videos. I am, however, aware of some of his proposals. I’ll be commenting your summary instead since you seem to want to present a case for the Exodus and for a... more
    • re: Rohl and the ExodusMarianne Luban, Thu May 10 09:12
      Jaime wrote: "The pet name is Sesi, or Sisa, which Rohl believes came to be written and read by the 7th Century BCE, in Hebrew, as Sysq. He is not alone, however, as James et. al use this precise... more
      • Re: Rohl and the ExodusJaime O, Sat May 12 07:37
        Hello Marianne, Toby Thank you both for your comments. Marianne wrote: “This [Ramses = Sesi = Sysq] as a "cornerstone" for a theory makes no sense whatsoever. Neither in the Hebrew or Egyptian... more
        • Re: Rohl and the ExodusAnonymous, Tue May 15 00:41
          //You’ll find many critics of Rohl and James who agree with you. I disagree with the proposal on grounds other than linguistic. Anyway, if you wish to read more on the matter to fully understand the... more
        • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 14 01:24
          Hello Jaime, Good discussion. You wrote: "Toby: I appreciate your comments on the Israel stele. However, it doesn’t answer my question to you: what could ‘laid in waste’, or ‘devastated’, mean in... more
          • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Mon May 21 14:19
            Hello Toby, Before anything else: forgive me for the delay aaaaaand… I messed up!! Rohl’s dates for Merneptah are a bit higher, about 875. See the Wikipedia article I sent Marianne. I was working on... more
            • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Peter James, Thu May 24 04:39
              Jaime, many thanks for distinguishing the work of myself and colleagues (Centuries of Darkness) from that of a.n.other. The latter's so-called "New Chronology" is utterly impossible: Egyptian NK... more
              • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Sat May 26 12:03
                Hello James thank you for the reply. It's always nice to read something from you, even though we stand on opposite sides of the chronological debate. On the city of Salem - yes, it does seem like it... more
              • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Herbert Storck, Fri May 25 07:19
                Good to see you still active. I have read a couple of your more recent peer-reviewed papers and have been impressed at how your ideas and research have matured over the years. I no longer believe... more
              • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Thu May 24 18:37
                "On the name Shishak, its possible relation to a shortened version of Ramesses (III and not II!!) and other matters discussed here recently, see the papers both pro and contra in the published... more
            • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 21 23:09
              Hello Jaime, You have no need to apologize for any delay. The collegiate has the busiest schedule in life. Thanks for the fine discussion. I regret to say that I must bow out of this discussion at... more
              • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Sat May 26 11:53
                Hi Toby At least we got to tackle some points. Maybe we will continue this discussion somewhere else, some other time. I can already tell the Israel stele and the Karnak relifs will intrigue you,... more
          • "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Mon May 14 18:41
            "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the victories of... more
            • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 10:26
              Jon wrote: "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the... more
              • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 11:13
                Faulkner's dictionary is a good place to find where Egyptian words are attested. "fk" is given by Faulkner as "be empty" and the source he gives there is the Leiden Papyrus, "The Admonitions of a... more
                • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 11:40
                  The Kamose text uses "fkw" in this context, which has been translated as "No man can settle down, when despoiled by the taxes of the Asiatics". [bAkw stiw].
            • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 14 18:54
              Hello Jon, Me: "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the... more
              • "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Sun May 20 20:07
                Toby, you wrote: "Ramesses, Merneptah's ancestor was likely the Pharoah that laid Israel waste. He has a relief on the Mortuary Temple at Karnak showing that. It has Egyptian and Israelie Chariots in ... more
                • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 21 23:06
                  Hello Jon Smyth, Thanks for the tips on Yurco etc. I regret to say that I must bow out of this discussion at the request of the list owner who would like this discussion relegated to the New... more
              • "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 10:40
                Toby wrote: "BTW, I KNOW that according to Conventional Egyptian Chronology, the chariot battle with ISrael couldn't have occured. The only way this relief makes sense is if Rameses lived 250 years... more
        • Re: Rohl and the ExodusMarianne Luban, Sat May 12 11:00
          Jaime wrote: Marianne wrote: “This [Ramses = Sesi = Sysq] as a "cornerstone" for a theory makes no sense whatsoever. Neither in the Hebrew or Egyptian languages have I ever heard of a custom of... more
        • shishaW becomes shishaQToby Anderson, Sat May 12 09:55
          Hello Jaime, Marianne, I made a short video showing how the 'W' in shishaw (Ramesses birth name) became a Q in ShishaQ. I think it shows it better than the pic in the wiki website you gave Jaime. The ... more
          • Paleo-HebrewMarianne Luban, Sat May 12 11:20
            Toby: "I made a short video showing how the 'W' in shishaw (Ramesses birth name) became a Q in ShishaQ. I think it shows it better than the pic in the wiki website you gave Jaime. The glyphs for the... more
            • Paleo-HebrewToby Anderson, Sat May 12 13:11
              Marianne, You: 'OMG--you obviously don't know anything about this.' and in the earlier posting: 'As long as there are people like you around, he'll keep writing them.' Since you are acting hostile, I ... more
              • re: Paleo-HebrewMarianne Luban, Sat May 12 14:16
                Toby: You: 'OMG--you obviously don't know anything about this.' and in the earlier posting: 'As long as there are people like you around, he'll keep writing them.' I meant people that, due to lack of ... more
      • re: Rohl and the ExodusMarianne Luban, Thu May 10 12:12
        And here is another thing. You can't shift the time line of ancient Egypt in a radical fashion without running into problems presented by primary sources. For example, Thutmose III always left on his ... more
        • Unshifting Sands of Egyptian ChronologyToby Anderson, Thu May 10 19:49
          Hello Marianne, You wrote: "And here is another thing. You can't shift the time line of ancient Egypt in a radical fashion without running into problems..." I ---think--- you are under the wrong... more
          • Taking LicenseMarianne Luban, Thu May 10 20:55
            Toby wrote: " I ---think--- you are under the wrong impression. Rohl was not suggesting shifting the Egyptian Timeline. Rohl was suggesting shifting the Hebrew Timeline." Who asked him to? Is that... more
            • re: Taking LicenseToby Anderson, Fri May 11 08:24
              Hi Marianne, You: "Who asked him (Rohl) to? Is that the business of someone involved with Egyptology? I hardly think so." ...asked....business Are you suggesting that research should only be done is... more
              • re: Taking LicenseMarianne Luban, Fri May 11 10:22
                Toby wrote: "Are you suggesting that research should only be done is someone is asked or paid? I hope you're not implying that... for there are much better motivations such as the desire to find out... more
                • gods of EgyptAnonymous, Tue May 15 06:50
                  Re Rohl: Which god of Egypt is responsible for confusion? Good points Marianne. Your comment about dynasty XX and the king of Biblos when into my notes on the accession of Saul, one year after... more
                • re: Taking LicenseToby Anderson, Fri May 11 14:00
                  Since you are questioning Rohl's licensing, here it is: "In 1985 Rohl became the first Director of the Institute for the Study of Interdisciplinary Sciences (ISIS), and editor of its Journal of the... more
                  • re: Taking LicenseJon Smyth, Fri May 11 17:02
                    Toby. You forgot to mention Rohl was a rock musician in the early 1970's. Ok, all joking aside, are you seriously interested in archaeology? I take it you follow Rohl's theories, but what about... more
                    • re: Taking LicenseToby Anderson, Fri May 11 22:36
                      Hello Jon, Yes archeology interests me. I've been a 'x0-moderator' on a Chronology discussion group for years, though, it is pretty dead right now. I am rather new to Egyptian chronology and I really ... more
                • re: Taking LicenseMarianne Luban, Fri May 11 10:25
                  This expresses it perfectly. http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2007/05/David-Rohls-Revised-Egyptian-Chronology-A-View-From-Palestine.aspx#Article
        • re: Rohl and the ExodusMarianne Luban, Thu May 10 14:17
          And--oh--when it comes to Dynasty 19, everything is accurate because a new Sothic Cycle begins. Things will be even more accurate than they were in the previous Dynasty. Sothis will really rise in I... more
    • Re: Rohl and the Exodus — Toby Anderson, Wed May 9 23:12
      • Re: Rohl and the ExodusJon Smyth, Thu May 10 18:16
        "If Merneptah’s campaign as described in this inscription is mapped out, the most likely location for the ‘Israel’ referred to here is in the central hill country." That all depends on where Yenoam... more
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