Hello Jaime

Well, here's a partial reply.... more to come later...

Jaime wrote:
On the Israel Stele: I’m sure you’ll find some scholarly opinion that argues that ‘Israel’ here stands for a group of people. Neither a kingdom, nor a nation. This view is based on the reading of hieroglyphs, which unfortunately I can’t. I also can’t seem to tell what “laid to waste” means in this new perspective. If (dates are for illustration only) we assume that Ramses II invaded Jerusalem in 925, we should expect him to become king around 932. This in turn would place the beginning of Merneptah’s reign around 865. This corresponds to the first half of the reigns of Ahab and Jehoshaphat. Israel can’t be described as ‘laid in waste’. But I don’t want to build a straw man here. Do you have access to Rohl’s books or articles? I’ve read many articles by him and about his chronology online but haven’t read him on this.

Toby replies:
There is internal (Israel Stele) and external evidence.

A. INTERNAL EVIDENCE:

"Line 26
The princes are prostrate saying: "Shalom!" Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head Tjehenu is vanquished, Khatti at peace,Canaan
Line 27
is captive with all woe, Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized,Yanoam made nonexistent;Israel is wasted, bare of seed, Khor is become a widow for Egypt. All who roamed have been subdued."

1. 1st, note that the nomadic people are being contrasted to the non-nomadic people (including Israel).

the nomads: 'All who roamed have been subdued'
------contrasted with -----
the NON-NOMADS: Askelon (conquered), Gezer (seized), Yanoam (non-existance), Israel (wasted), Khor (Syria... a widow).

2. 2nd, consider this statement about the heiroglyphics:
" "‘Israel’ as described in this inscription is an entity at least on a par with the city-states Ashkelon, Gezer and Yanoam, but the term has the ‘people’ determinative, indicating that it is a rural or tribal entity, not a state with a city as its centre. (In Egyptian hieroglyphic script, ‘determinatives’ are signs indicating the category to which a particular entity belongs.) If Merneptah’s campaign as described in this inscription is mapped out, the most likely location for the ‘Israel’ referred to here is in the central hill country. In other words, the ‘Israel’ described in this inscription is similar in nature and extent to Israel as described at the end of Joshua or in the Song of Deborah (Judg. 5). Note the boastful rhetoric of the inscription: so far from being without ‘seed’, Israel was to continue in the land for many centuries! Neither Joshua nor Judges mentions a clash with Egyptians." (The book of Joshua: largely fiction?, Exploring the Old Testament: The Histories, Philip Satterthwaite, Gordon McConville, Vol. 2, p65, 2007 AD)"

EXTERNAL EVIDENCE

Basically Merneptah inscribed a poem on the backside of a stele which was originally created by 1 of his predecessors (Amenhotep III). '...A duplicate copy of this text was written on a stela erected in the temple of Karnak. Furthermore, a long prose account of the Libyan war (not translated here) was inscribed on the inside of the eastern wall that connects the central part of the Karnak temple with Pylon No. VII." (The Poetical Stela of Merneptah, Ancient Egyptian literature, Miriam Lichtheim, volume II, p73, 1973. He then made some additions to the inscriptions (reliefs) already on this Karnak (Mortuary) temple.... The end result, was that all around this temple were pictures of battles, some accompanied by heiroglyphics. Merneptah's poem basically described these reliefs of not only his exploits, but also those of his predecessors including ramesses II and Amenhotep III. Thus, there was a one-to-one synchronism between those nations mentioned in his stele ----with---- those pictorial reliefs on the walls of the Karnak Mortuary temple. Hence the nation Israel had it's own pictorial relief as well which gives confirmation and additional data regarding the nation of Israel. The relief shows that Israel had chariots. Chariots were first introduced to Israel by David and Solomon. You can see a photograph of this Israelie relief here:

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/08/13/The-Bible-According-to-Karnak.aspx

And this is the text to go along with it.


"Along the secondary north-south axis of Karnak Temple is a relief carved by Merenptah (1212–1202 BC) that apparently corresponds to the famous stele found in his mortuary temple on the west bank (Byers 2004). In an area between the Hypostyle Hall and the seventh pylon at Karnak Temple, known as the Cour de la Cachette, Merenptah depicted military exploits from his Canaanite campaign in 1210 BC. This wall, originally about 49 m (160 ft) long and 9 m (30 ft) high, was constructed by Ramesses II and already contained the text of his Battle of Kadesh (1275 BC) peace treaty with the Hittites. Merenptah usurped space on both sides of the treaty text to illustrate his Canaanite campaign. Interestingly, he did the same thing with the stele on which is recorded in text form this same military action. After demolishing Pharaoh Amenhotep III’s mortuary temple to build his own, Merenptah appropriated and reused the reverse side of a 3 m (10 ft) tall stone monument originally carved by Amenhotep III. In the Karnak Temple, three cities are depicted being conquered by the Pharaoh. One of them, Ashkelon, is named and apparently the other two are Gezer and Yenoam, as described in Merenptah’s stele. The fourth scene, above and to the right of Ramesses’ peace treaty, did not depict a city but a people group being defeated—also described in the stele. They appear as a confusing jumble of defeated soldiers beneath the horses of Merenptah’s chariot. Like the people in the conquered cities, these soldiers wear ankle-length garments, suggesting they inhabit the same region. Apparently these soldiers were the fourth defeated enemy in Merenptah’s Canaan campaign—Israel—just as recorded in the Merenptah Stele. That makes this the earliest visual portrayal of Israelites ever discovered. The next time Israelites are visually depicted on a relief comes ca. 370 years later on an Assyrian obelisk (Maier 2004:91). Michael Luddeni"


Toby wrote: “(…) the Pharaoh who raised Moses was likely Sobekhotep IV (who is also Kha-nefe-re. Artapanus, 3rd or 2nd century BCE, who is quoted by others, wrote that this Pharoah in Greek is called Khe-noph-res) and that the Pharoah of the Exodus was likely Dudimose”

Jaime wrote:
Any attempt at identifying the Pharaoh of the Exodus seems sterile to me. The Book of Exodus couldn’t be any more obsolete in identifying this king or his predecessor were. I don’t think later authors such as Artapanus and Josephus knew more either. Any attempt at naming those two monarchs relies solely on ancient Egyptian kings lists and mathematics, which is exactly what later authors such as Artapanus and Josephus did. It’s exactly what we still do to this very day.

Toby replied:
I only partially agree. The few pharaoh's mentioned by name in the Bible are not much help. On the other hand, if we were to throw out all king's lists, our Assyrian chronology would be pretty sterile itself. A key Pharaoh list, used by Rohl, in this regard (the Exodus) was in a papyrus attributed to Ramsesses himself, per wiki: 'The Turin King List, also known as the Turin Royal Canon, is an ancient Egyptian hieratic papyrus thought to date from the reign of Pharaoh Ramesses II'

Best wishes to you,
Toby